Ben-DutkaSticky issue be damned; this needs to be said.
There has been lots of talk lately about including the "LGBT" culture (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) in video games. Obviously, we've gone through some of this before, when the question of openly gay virtual characters hit the headlines some years back. I assume we all remember that.
And I'll simply repeat before what I said then- go right ahead. If developers want to utilize such content for the sake of telling their story, so they convey the vision they have in their heads, fine. Won't bother me in the slightest. It's a reflection of the way the world is now, so by all means, reflect away. Regardless of your beliefs, art is very much about reflecting society and if we dare label video games as art, then we should stand by this historic truism.
However, there is one giant caveat to all this. If it's for the sake of art, fine; if it's for the purpose of a transparent political agenda, no. Don't waste my time and don't insult me. Don't hire a Transgender individual to write a story featuring that content unless that person is the best person for the job. Do not place an agenda over talent. We do it every single day in enough venues and it's enough to make one wince, because it really is painfully insulting. Don't place LGBT content into a game if it has no place being there. Don't illogically implant it just to make a "support statement."
See, this works both ways. If we are going to label games art, and we accept that art can and should reflect the current state of civilization, we should also accept art as the sacred form of communication it is. Art can be used to break down social barriers but that should never be the primary purpose of art. Ibsen's "A Doll's House" was revolutionary for women's rights but it was also a high-quality piece of work . The latter is what's most important because that message wouldn't have been properly stated without that quality. In short, don't produce a piece of crap just because you have a political agenda. It insults art as a medium.
Talent and quality come first. If a gay individual can write the best script for a game you want to make, great. Go for it. If you've got a plot where some sort of LGBT content is essential, I've got no issue. If it's obvious that such content only exists to make a point, no thank you. If I want that, I'll just pick up any newspaper in the country and look at the front page. Journalism can keep its agenda. Art shouldn't be compromised for any reason ever. As an amateur artist, I will always believe this.
As a member of the LGBT community and a gamer for over 30 years, I have to agree, if it adds to and helps the story great, if not don't make my community a part of your agenda.
Hi, glad you're a member of this site.
I also like you PSX Extreme handle and the pic. As you can see I'm a fan of wolves (particularly werewolves) as well. 🙂
Last edited by H8WL3R on 8/5/2013 9:14:40 PM
I've always liked that they let gay relationships and marriage into the super duper free RPGs. With stuff like Mass Effect I like to play as a female Shepard and I'd rather have her getting with other women, I don't like men much lol.
I only want to see gay people in video games if it is part of the story, and not just thrown in for good measure.
There needs to be context, not just for shits and giggles.
I could play games for the rest of my life and be perfectly fine without thinking about a fictional characters' sexuality.
If the story is centered on the LGBT lifestyle, then it's clearly not meant for me. If a LGBT person is used in the game for realistic character diversity, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just don't see how it has any relevance if I'm playing as an explorer, or an assassin, or a soldier, in a game.
I can think of a few examples where sexuality comes into play when you're an explorer (Nathan Drake), an assassin (Ezio), and a soldier (Dom from Gears of War 3). Of course, those examples are all heterosexual. I can scarcely think of a AAA video game outside of the RPG realm where ANY character is anything but heterosexual. That contributes to heteronormativity.
Why is inclusiveness either part of art or part of an agenda? That's an example of the fallacy of false choice. We have more options than just those two: we can choose to be more representative of our culture, to "reflect the current state of [our] civilization," rather than only reaffirm heteronormativity.
But I wonder if inclusiveness with regard to LGBTQ issues will forever be tainted and labelled by others as political agenda. If that is the case, then no wonder why we still need Gay Pride.
If you can't tell the difference between inclusiveness and an active agenda, you really need to open your eyes. I'm just sick of people who can't make the distinction. Either they're incapable of it or they don't want to believe there could be an agenda.
If it's the former, I feel sorry for them. If it's the latter, they're blinder than bats. And worse, they actually believe that blindness makes them superior.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/5/2013 1:23:09 AM
So Ben, is it safe to say you won't be seeing the movie "Elysium"? lol
I don't know what it's about. But if it's as transparent as District 9 and half the movies Hollywood produces today, then no.
It most definitely is as transparent as D9.
I'm all for equality, but I most definitely dislike pride parades and agendas. Wouldn't it be better for inclusiveness if people in the LGBT community acted as if their relationship choices were normal? (most do) Sure, the fact that I like women is a part of who I am, just as a homosexual who likes the same gender has that as a part of who they are.
But I'm sorry… it'll never be equal until we all behave the same way. I never have to show off any kind of pride for my ability to get with and prefer a woman. Until people see pride parades and say "so what?" just like you would say that if I started declaring my heterosexuality… it'll never truly be equal.
Besides… I find that agendas and parades and the like reinforce the stereotypes that are preventing people from accepting it as opposed to properly educating people. If anything, it hurts progress by showing people that yes… they are very different from the rest of us…
Just my opinion.
I remember Ben didn't like District 9 for its, on the surface, political message. Safe to assume he'd hate Elysium. Not too keen myself on the whole Classwarfare crapola as its these Hollywood types who don't see the irony of staring in a movie like Elysium(they are the privileged) but I will see it nonetheless since I loved D9 and really like Shartlo Coply.
I didn't feel D9 was all that in your face. Blomkamp grew up in apartheid South Africa. He just took a touchy issue from his childhood and made a sick azz scifi movie about it.
Last edited by Jawknee on 8/6/2013 12:35:13 AM
The Persona series, 4 in particular, has been dealing with issues of sexuality for a while now. And they're fantastic games.
Good point. It's a bigger part of Japanese pop culture I think.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/5/2013 11:56:37 AM
There just won't be an end to this issue… ****ing ridiculous.
Exactly. You want to include gay relationships in Sims. Fine. Harvest Moon. Of course. But don't put it in a game just because we have to be fair. Not because you're afraid you'll be labeled a homophobe if you don;t. We have token girls, token blacks. Token everything. Do we really need token gays too?
I'm Jewish. let's see more Jews in video games. Not to tell a story. Not just to flesh out a character's backstory. Just because I don't see enough of them in games. Or any, really. and hey, some people have prostetics. Let's see some of those in video games, because it's fair. let's just put things in games because we're afraid we're haters, bullies, whatever if we don't. See how ridiculous this becomes?
I'll play as a lesbian trying to rescue her wife in a nice RPG, if the RPG is any good. I do not want to play as a lesbian because they had to put in a gay character. If it fits, great. Do not shoehorn it in because it's right, or tolerant or PC.
It's interesting to hear a few people on here that are 'for' having homosexual relationships within a game. As they don't seem fond of the idea in having their female and lusting over a man. It's interesting, imagine all the women playing games even such games like Final Fantasy, Take VIII. I have never heard a woman say they're not found of Squall idolizing Rinoa and would rather have him go for Seifer…
I have no problem such content appearing in games, but I just hate it when it is thrown in for controversy. I see no need for it in Mass Effect and the worst thing it people began taking it as a joke rather than a serious choice. So it really turns their back on the community in the long run.
I have yet to see a game introduce the topic in a story in a mature way. Take a film like 'A Single Man'. The lead character George is a homosexual but the story itself is not focused on that. The story is more focused on George's grief when his lover dies. There is reason for it though, George's best friend Charley – a woman, has strong feelings for him and this is later conflicted.
I guess I am just tired of seeing it as a controversial issue and it is that sense of chauvinism which makes me tire of seeing it.
I know a girl that would prefer that coupling.
> I have never heard a woman say they're not found of Squall idolizing Rinoa and would rather have him go for Seifer…
No? You haven't been around the 'net much, have you? FF has a HUGE yaoi fanbase.
re: topic
In essence, I agree with Ben's point.
That said, in order to break heteronormativity, you generally have to start somewhere. I would agree that there shouldn't be "token gays" in games, but there shouldn't also be "token blacks" and "token women", but we still have those some 36 years later. And yet, token representation might still be better than zero representation – if the mere presence of black and female characters in games leads to having *good* black and female characters, then hopefully it should apply to gay characters as well.
I actually liked Sahz but he was definitely a token black character.
Makes me want to play Fear Effect 2. 😉
Seriously, no problem with any LGBT story lines in video games. I think "love" is a universal and as long as it is top quality writing I don't care what the orientation.
Don't see what the big deal is.
Haha, I really did try to play Fear Effect 2 with an open mind. But trying to save my partner while she was trapped in such a device… yes it lost a lot of credibility there 😛
But it is also a really difficult game! I played the 1st game recently and got stuck over this bit where a guy is meant to run over some pipes. Yet, you can only just make it within a few milli-seconds… Swear I tried that part a good 50 times…
Yip, hard games… Even with a walkthrough guide I still struggled with the controls and timings. Must have become soft over the last 2 generations!
You don't have to be gay to write a story about a gay character? And a gay writer can very well write a story that don't involve homosexuality?
Last edited by Beamboom on 8/5/2013 4:15:04 AM
…I didn't say anything otherwise.
… Or did you?
Quote: "If a gay individual can write the best script for a game you want to make, great."
Why even bother with the sexual orientation of the author? Unless, of course, you mean to say that only gay authors write scripts with gay characters. Alternatively it implies that if a script contains a gay character, it must have been written by a gay author.
But if it was just a unfortunately worded sentence then that's all it was. Unfortunate it was, still. And now I have pointed that out. 🙂
Beam, you have to write the sentence that way when you are addressing an issue where script writers are recruited because they are gay.
As in… they get the best gay writer they know, and point to the fact they're gay to somehow boost the idea that they have more credibility… as opposed to just straight up getting the best writer, gay or not.
I think Ben has to write it that way because that is precisely the issue.
Is that really how you perceive what the topic of this article is, Underdog?
The way I read it, it's about LGBT *content* in the games, not the authors sexual orientation. The text just implies that you need to be of the same orientation in order to write such content. And that's just… Weird.
It's like saying you need to be a murderer in order to write crime fiction. 😀
Last edited by Beamboom on 8/5/2013 3:42:59 PM
It's certainly an implication that companies would go out of their way to hire a gay author if they're looking for a script featuring a gay hero or heroine. It's not implied that only gay authors can write about gay characters.
Yes Beam, that is what I'm saying
lol – so you guys seriously believe companies actively try to find gay and transgender authors just because they need someone to pen a gay or transgender character in their fiction? Are you for real?!
Does the term "research" ring a bell to you guys? No?
This is the dumbest I've read on this site so far, guys. I don't know if I should laugh or cry, there's grounds for both.
Last edited by Beamboom on 8/6/2013 4:15:07 PM
No, we aren't saying they seek them out because they're the only ones that can do it, sillypants.
We're saying they do it to give the script more credibility. Also, if a controversial idea comes into play the LGBT community reacts against, they can say, "yeah, well one of you penned it"
I don't see how you could have missed that in what I'm saying. I said, "and point to the fact they're gay to somehow boost the idea that they have more credibility… as opposed to just straight up getting the best writer, gay or not." And you just completely didn't read that.
It's a safe option. It's been done before in other types of business. I know people who headed up our company's diversity committee were asked… and somehow they also just happened to be gay. It's not that much of a stretch, Beam. It happens in all sorts of different businesses. Not just writers. Go to any company that put in a float for a gay pride parade… And ask them… who headed up the committee for that? Who did you ask? …. ARE THEY GAY!?! Because I'm willing to bet odds are that yes… they are… because it's a safe option.
Idiot. (hey, you practically said it first anyways. Don't cry, kiddo.)
You honestly have no clue, man. Not a single clue. Go back to the forums where you belong.
ass
Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/7/2013 1:00:07 AM
I'm sorry, but I just can't get over the fact that you seriously think the "best qualified candidate" is always the one to get the job. Seriously. And I also don't get how you can read what some of us write, and not comprehend the most important parts…
Like you literally straight up said this: "you guys seriously believe companies actively try to find gay and transgender authors just because they need someone to pen a gay or transgender character in their fiction?"
LOL! NO! That isn't at all what was said… Jeebus Grist, buddy…. Then you go on a rant about how idiotic we are… oh… the irony…
Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/7/2013 1:02:18 AM
Beamboom, you apparently have no clue what we're saying.
Just to help clarify Beamboom on that sentence.. I won't touch on that currently heated debate:
"If a gay individual can write the best script for a game you want to make, great."
I merely read this as Ben explaining how he has no issues with gays being in the industry and games given that they're not only there to prove a point. To further this, he included an example, basically saying if there happened to be a fantastic script that involved themes associated with the LGBT community and was written by a gay individual, that's awesome and more power to them.
I could care less on what a character's pixels are attracted to, granted said character actually has a solid personality and background history to go with it. This goes with any kind of story, gameplay-wise or regular reading. We want characters, not tokens. :p
Many gamers loved Ezio from AC, not because of all the women he loved, but on what he was capable of skillfully and the hardships he endured along the way towards his goals. I'd expect the same treatment to go with a LGBT character if they want others to accept them.
I agree. If it's part of the story, I don't mind. But I don't want it thrown in there to have it there.
I think Nier was the only game to have a transgender character and it handled it in a very artful way I must say.
I have no problem with homosexuals in my game as long as there isn't an agenda behind it.
I take issue calling games art, since art these days is meaningless by definition other than if it means something to you or conveys something to emotionally or whatever… its art. Which as a graphic designer I stopped calling myself an artist, because no one could give me a satisfactory def. Yep, in the end I was called a snob. Still wonder about that.
OKAY, that said I am all for cultural and political "norms" in games, to a point. Devs keep pushing the envelope to see how far the "norm" allows them. Be interesting to see how far they will go with this.
Keep playing!
I just want to say that male gay porn is THE MOST DISGUSTING THING ON THE INTERNET. However, lesbian porn, especially with certain types of …. toys, is the greatest of all time.
As far as political games go, that stuff happens all the time. Hell, Final Fantasy Tactics was the biggest anti-religious game of all time.
End of line.
How do you know it's the most disgusting? Can you inform us? I've never taken a gander, myself.
Perhaps you're a little bi-curious? Wanna chat about it?
What happens behind closed doors..
Hmmmm, well it could be viewed as a very loaded topic, couldn't it? I'm sure most have an opinion and perhaps reasons for and against. It seems many people consider people of that persuasion to simply living a lifestyle choice. Which isn't really the topic at hand, because if it were, I suppose the debate could also include the question of nature vs. nurture, or components of both. But pertaining to the topic and the choice in game…
I think part of the reason LGBT sexuality is usually presented as a choice to the player, is to not exclude people who are specifically attracted to one sex or the other. That's diplomatic and allows the player to play out part of what they're thinking and/or feeling usually offline, no? So I'm glad games like Mass Effect offer variations on the adult-adult relationships. The fact is though, LGBT players are much more limited, but I haven't often read comments here about how unjust that may seem. I also think just about all playable characters (especially main ones) and even many NPC characters are presented as hetero because of the discomfort of not having the option to express a hetero/straight sentiment and be left only with the homo/gay option. I don't think a game would do very well if it were a main gay playable character, even if it was implied and not explicitly sexual in nature. As an example, what if Nathan Drake from the Uncharted franchise found his love interest to be male from the start? What if instead of Elena and Chloe, it were male versions, in which he shared romantic/sexual chemistry with? What if he were bi, but that part of himself just hasn't been shown since it's not a part of him. Interesting thought, what if he's repressed it? These are hypothetical questions of course, of a fictional character no less. What if in the future, it was known that he is in fact bi and it was explored a little, unlikely though. Another one I could think of is Kratos, what if it were men he was carelessly banging. What I mane to say is, what if Nathan and Kratos, looked, acted and played exactly the same, in essence being the same character, with the caveat that they sexually interacted with men? I find it difficult to think the games would have been as successful and grown into a franchises. However if it were women characters who are lesbian/bi that would probably much more comfortable to bi/straight teens/men. This isn't to say that I don't think there'd be any interest in the male-male variations, but but because I feel it's been tailored to the main male teen/adult demographic. If we were more comfortable with our own and the sexuality of others it probably wouldn't be much of an issue. It's like if Jake is aroused by Megan Fox or some other woman, is he choosing to be or just is? What if Jake were aroused by Jamie Fox or some other man, is he therefor choosing to be or just is? Why is someone who is attracted to the same sex (physically born self) and/or gender (internally identified self) simply choosing to be and is part of their lifestyle? I know people and have friends who identify as straight, lesbian, gay, bi AND transgender. I try not to adopt any prejudices (sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc.) especially when they are simply a part of someone and not meant to harm or coerce.
So the fact that Nathan and Kratos is depicted as sexually attracted to women and has had relationships with them, is that considered serving some hetero/straight agenda? Would it be serving an agenda if he simply thought of men to be and felt them to be sexually attractive instead? I guess sometimes the line can get a little blurry between simply representative and inclusive as opposed to hidden/blatant agendas. I surmise almost anything can be seen as an agenda by someone if said someone found it unpleasant and uncomfortable. I suppose it could be interesting to read what some people consider, I don't know, an acceptable inclusion of a LGBT character. One example seems to be Nier's inclusion, mentioned by WorldEndWithMe.
Also I'd like to add that, it would be nice to include other types of LGBT characters other than the stereotypes, which are cliche for a reason, but aren't representative of the whole community. I can assert not all women whom are only physically attracted to women are butch in nature, nor all men who are only physically attracted to men are feminine in nature. 🙂
Because the amount of time (and text) I see in your reply.. I can't ignore this. 😛
Given the demographic of majority gamers being straight and male, it's safe to assume the main character is often the one the player wants to identify with the most. Perhaps they want to be like them? and well, who wouldn't want to be the tough guy who gets the girl.. or two.. or three, and still kick ass and save the world? Then you get the straight females and gaymers who also treat them as eye candy and find it more enjoyable to play through as them. That's a lot of love for the big and bad, romantic male lead. It's no wonder they dominate the character list.
Same reason why a lot of female gamers I've came across prefer the original Lara Croft from the 90's to early 00's, who already was tough as nails, and shot first before asking questions and didn't need a man at her side to get everything done.. versus the new Lara who now has a softer side and had to endure plenty of hardships to get to be how tough she is now. Unsurprisingly, gaymers have a larger appreciation for the new Lara Croft.
There have been a few reasonable options in some games. The main lead, Jimmy Hopkins in the PS2 game Bully is officially bisexual. Whenever he's not getting revenge on certain people, he can kiss just about any girl.. and one boy in each clique. In the Xbox 360 version, they added a trophy which requires you to kiss boys. The Metal Gear Solid series has quite a few characters that have diverse sexual orientation, Dr. Strangelove (her tapes confirm) and Kaz (dateable, and some tapes imply), from Peace Walker. Ocelot in MGS4 (see what happens when you don't struggle when he grabs you during the final battle), Vamp (Snake confirms) in MGS2, and those are just off the top of my head. Also the implication of love between Vanille and Fang in FFXIII. Neither of the mentioned could be seen as stereotypical and weren't advertised on the forefront for having such themes in, and they had a distinct enough personality to make you overlook their gender preference.
Last edited by VampDeLeon on 8/7/2013 5:04:58 PM
Thanks for your input VampDeLeon. 🙂
Yeah, I understand that male hetero characters dominate the character list because of the demographic playing and it's partially representative of the players themselves. That's part of what I thought I was saying, sorry if it was unclear on my part. The point you made about even though they are hetero men, there are definitely gay and bi male and female fans, sure. I fully agree, and it's probably often to do partially with sex appeal from both sexes. That's a good observation. It's just that I think there are far more LGBT gamers though that are not represented, nor are presented with many characters who are for sure LGBT and it's not ambiguous or hidden. I think that even though it's not as taboo it's still not there much in games yet and I think there are a lot more palyers of those particular persuasions than people may be aware of. I bet people may have more LGBT gamers on their friends list than they may know, but many people still hide that part of themselves for a variety of reasons.
I have not yet tried the new gen Tom Raider, although I do have the PS3 HD Trilogy, but haven't gotten very far yet. I can see the correlation you've made with her and certain communities having to overcome certain attitudes and abuse, and being able to relate more to the current iteration. I've got the impression it's a very good game too (from sources such as this site).
The games while I have heard of haven't yet played much or at all as of yet, but would like to. Hmmmm, cool. I also find it a little surprising and interesting that there's such a (bi) trophy for the XBOX360 version of Bully. I either had no idea (likely) or totally forgot about it. Yeah somehow I think I knew there were some MGS characters who were confirmed or thought to be gay or bi.
Thanks again for your thoughtful response. 😀
when its used like How Persona 4 used Kanji i have no problem
honestly i really like how Persona 4 pretty much Nailed school Life and the characters felt like people you could honestly meet in real life
even though they made fun of Kanji about it ive seen people do that in RL schools to Gay people so it wasn't really meant to be a joke since they were trying to portay a highschool life style and all the characters never seemed out of context in the game
Now when you throw in a gay character just to have a gay character and theres no story plot with that char then it just is plain stupid
personally i don't care if your LGBT cause your still a person now in a videogame since its story telling give the characters a story to tell about their sexuality if that actually effects the plot
for instance drakengard what was cut out of the NA/EU version Caims sister was truly in love with him yes she wanted incest though also was the goddess
i will stop their because Drakengard has the most Messed up story in Videogames
though honestly Most Devs and publishers wont take the chances Drakengard did just like Most Anime Artists wont take the chances that Berserk takes
i honestly like how Berserk uses Sex as plot points like how griffith sold himself to a king for money to support the band of the Hawk then Later griffith kills that King
sorry for getting off topic there
I respect your opinion and think I understand it Lunar_Miyuki. Thanks for the open mindset you seem to have and for the examples you've also provided; although I'm not personally familiar with any of what you mentioned, except I've heard of the Persona franchise and think I bought the 3rd one from the PSN.
There are some games though, perhaps someone would agree, that uses a character's sexuality where it doesn't really impact the plot. One example of this that some people may even find offensive, would be the sexcapade (kind of a tad fun and frustrating) mini-games in the GoW series. To clarify I personally do not find it offensive, but, I'm not sure those trysts are very essential to the plot itself. I guess it shows his need for sexual gratification without any emotional ties, but if those minor side-plot mini-games were omitted, wouldn't it be obvious his only emotions seem to be sorrow and especially ragefull vengeance for feeling like a pawn/puppet?