Ben-DutkaI don't think there's any arguing the fact that Final Fantasy is on the decline. Tragic but true.
And as Square Enix shows no indication of being able to pull the storied franchise out if its tailspin, most expect the downward trend to continue. But here's an interesting question for the long-time faithful: Precisely when do you think the fall began? Where did the slide start?
A great many will immediately say Final Fantasy XIII as it was the first official FF entry this generation and marked the largest departure from the series we all came to know and love. Then again, one could make "tipping point" arguments for many different installments; for instance, some might say Final Fantasy XII , as it was also a significant departure and actually featured the most open-ended design of any FF title to date. That was a bit of a shock.
Others will actually go all the way back to Final Fantasy VII . As incomprehensible as it seems to me, they will say the series was only great in the Nintendo days; i.e., up to Final Fantasy VI , which many do claim is the best FF title ever. Still others could stand up and say that it's undoubtedly Final Fantasy X-2 , as it was the first actual sequel in the franchise and it hinted at a grim future for the franchise. Personally, I'm not down with any of this and I return to the original viewpoint:
It began with FFXIII.
Saying the downward spiral began with FFVII is too absurd for words. I won't even explain why; if you don't know why, you're not qualified to be a fan of the franchise. I'm sorry but it's true. FFX-2 has a bit more legitimacy because as the first sequel, we all got a whiff of a change we didn't like. That being said, the fact that FFX-2 was actually a damn good game has been overlooked far too often. I still say it boasted a wonderfully refined version of the combat mechanic we had in FFX, and is arguably one of the best RPG mechanics ever .
As for FFXII, it was my least favorite in terms of story and it did indeed feel a bit more like a "Western" RPG just because it was more open-ended. But it was still a role-playing game through and through, was it not? And the mechanics, despite being different, still worked almost perfectly. No, I believe the answer really is FFXIII. It marked the start of Square Enix's complete and utter confusion as a company, and it was the first time I actually noted significant flaws in a Final Fantasy fighting system. It was also the first FF that really did feel significantly watered down.
They tried to redeem themselves to some extent with FFXIII-2. And I do believe they succeeded in some respects. But the core of FF is still left behind in the past and I'm convinced we'll never see it again.
What do you think?
Most definitely 13, no towns, less player control and this push for sequels. And with 13 they've pushed the envelope further. 13-2 is fun but the story isn't just weak for an ff title, like 12 may be, rather it's just plain ridiculous.
Lighting returns looks to be a huge departure in narrative quality and gameplay.
The word you are searching for is "insulting"
No, it was Final Fantasy 10 part 2.
I remember Ben pointing fingers at people and getting mad for the male gamers not wanting to play this game, even though it was meant for girls and effeminate guys to play. You remember don't you Ben? How you LOVED to play dress up with the girlie characters and said it was childish for grown men to not want to play with ……. dress up dolls? MUAHAHAHAHA! Wussy.
Anyways, since then Square has been trying their ass off to make a legit super hero female to make a buck off of. Probably trying to tap into the gamer girl market.
I think Square was ruined when they and DISNEY started working together. Everything just got, well, "gayed" up after that.
End of line.
Lmao. Favorite post of the year.
Are you that unlikeable or is your brain underdeveloped? The fact that what Ben said so long ago still stuck with you till this day and the fact that you question his "manhood" probably means the later. To be honest id rather be dressing up hot 3D women than play most of the generic crap that comes out every week. Just because you arent comfortable with your sexuality doesnt take away the fact of how great 10-2 was. Well atleast to todays FF standards.
I loved playing dress up with those gals, it was much fun. Just like dolling up my hostesses in Yakuza 4 🙂
I don't think that view is incompatible with manliness at all, but then I'm a grown up.
It's a good thing I didn't take this comment seriously or I would have been insulted that you said KH is a bad series.
Men figuratively beating their chests like apes to display to other men just how hyper-masculine they can present themselves is so tiresome. Such displays reveal only how tragically insecure they are about their masculinity.
Is using 'gay' as a pejorative still a thing? Did I somehow get warped back to high school?
I'll let the typical adolescent stupidity of ethird1's post speak for itself. It really isn't necessary to humiliate him more…he did that to himself better than I ever could.
If it's sarcasm, it's in exceedingly poor taste.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/3/2013 12:25:48 AM
^^^ …and insulting your readers is in good taste?
Although, I'm sure my opinion will be marginalized here, since many of the return commenters live on a digital high horse.
"Oh, just look who posted it, their opinion is worthless" <–seems to be the norm on here.
Well, his comments aside, X-2 was a very weak game, and it was really the first FF game I couldn't even finish because I found it to be so boring.
They insult me, I'll insult them.
And that's not an opinion. That's a childish, flaming rant. Nobody attacks another's opinions in here, nor does anyone "marginalize" anything. That only happens when the poster is being a douchebag.
I'm sorry if that offends you.
…wait, no I'm no not.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/3/2013 10:46:28 AM
Wow. I feel like the dude just had some kind of mental breakdown. I mean, to insinuate that KH was a 'gay' series, is just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. It was SUCH a cool series. I just wish they didn't confuse the story so much.
Ben does have a way with his commenter's, and on this site, you have the lovers and the haters. He does seem to think he is knows gaming better than everyone else in the world, but that's just him. You either be a child, and complain about it, or you get over it and act like a man.
I have no issue with anyone in the comments, but there are some douche bags who just like to be douche bags.
EDIT: FF X-2 had the best iteration of the ATB system since the originals. It was also a good game.
Last edited by Akuma_ on 6/3/2013 8:00:33 PM
I've never been a fan but I've asked my wife who is. She'd played all of them before XIII (except XI) and was looking forward to XIII. She couldn't even finish Chapter 3 and when I asked her why, she told me that she didn't like the constrained nature and lack of exploration. Maybe she would have liked it better if she'd gotten to Gran Pulse but she lost interest well before that.
tl;dr Excessive linearity and losing focus on what made the series successful in the first place.
Last edited by Kryten1029a on 6/2/2013 11:00:12 PM
The series lost its focus when they decided to go the MMORPG route with Final Fantasy XI.
They wanted a piece of the MMO pie and decided to leverage their brand name to go toe to toe with WoW.
Problem is, they made a crappy game. Then they compounded the problem by making crappy ports on various consoles.
It was this moment that the whole Final Fantasy identity began to shift. Focus on single player was diverted as SE began to concern themselves with spin offs, sequels, and other ways to milk a franchise without actually creating a great game.
Having played all the FF games, now 33 yrs old, it was a very awesome experience being able to play in a Final Fantasy universe with friends. It's also the only game where PC players, PS2 players, and Xbox 360 players were able to play together online in the same universe. I still remember the funny moment when our 3 man group, venturing out to a quest on our chocobos, were chatting and realized we were playing this game on different consoles. 🙂 anyhow, I disagree with you on this one for the simple fact that FF11 and FF12 were awesome. Complaints were that 13 didn't let you explore…11 & 12 encouraged you to go out to the unknown. Cheers ^_^
Except FF11 was out well before World of Warcraft.
I played FF11 for several years and people who dismiss it because it was online are only doing so because they lack any information on the game or didn't play it enough.
First it was a huge game, the cities are massive, the landscape everything about it was huge. There were so many cool side quests and secrets in the game that most people couldnt even imagine finding them all. It didn't hold your hand like other mmos, if you wanted to find all the quests you had to talk to everyone.
Second the story was and still is absolutely amazing. There are 3 different stories depending on what nation you pick in the beginning, and while they are all following different heroes, they do intertwine. Playing all three nations story missions up to rank 10 was truly an amazing experience but not many people did this because they got distracted with the grinding MMO elements. Which is fine but they missed out a lot on what made the game great.
Also it had just an amazing community. No FF11 wasn't the start of the fall, nor was FF12. Both sold very well, and in fact FF11 still has over a million people playing it.
I often wish FF11 was made single player so that people could experience the awesome story it had more easily.
I would have to agree with the case of it being FF13. It was first FF were the dialogue was absolutely horrible and it was putting me to sleep with its gameplay mechanics. The auto command and rating system just kill it. While FF13-2 try to fix it it only created more problems with the monster party member, retcon story, and the auto command and rating still there. I believe FF13-2 tried very hard to fix issues with 13 but only created more into a spiraling down franchise that we are now faced with Lightning Returns. If it was a whole different game then I would be excited for but has it carries the FF name I just can't.
Well, there WERE previous entries with horrible dialogue but that's back when all games had horrible dialogue.
That is true but I guess what I was trying to say is that it didn't stick out has much as 13. At the same time a lot of it had to do with poor translation (previous FF) as I recall.
Last edited by To Be Decided on 6/3/2013 2:30:38 PM
I'd say FFX-2 but I will say that Vaan from FFXII was the worst main character ever conceived in a video game
I stand by Balthier's conviction that he was the hero of the story. Fran was just giving him a hard time at the end when she called him a side character.
Second choice would be Ashe. It was certainly more her story than Vaan's.
Vaan was along for the ride.
I still quote Balthier to this day.
thats one thing i didnt like about ff12, there wasnt really one clear main character. that annoyed me because i couldnt really get into the characters stories. not to mention i didnt like the political plot. i did still like ff12 but not as much as previous games.
Vaan was so annoying, I kept on hoping for someone to backhand him but it never happened. 🙁
Vaan is not a character, he is a transparent avatar like in any MMO. Hence why he has no input to the story. Balthier will always be the leading man.
I think it began with the battle system of FFXII, the gambits made it automatic and the ability to run around the field didn't add anything to the battles. They were MMO style and you did all your figuring out beforehand. The battles themselves were then just about as exciting as those of WKC (not bad but not great).
Once they realized people preferred the separate field of battle screen they tried to mesh the two and came up with FFXIII's semi automatic system.
The problem was compounded by needing to make a 360 version and being way over budget so they tried to opt for a linear game hoping the flashiness would distract us from all that had to be cut or went lacking.
They knew they had to make some money back so recycled a few things from the chopping block and slapped together FFXIII-2 after paying 2 or 3 junior high students 100 yen to write the script.
Confused about why the sequel didn't sell so well, they decided it hadn't become western enough and people wanted more Lightning because they had been irradiated during the tsunami. Then Lightning Returns was started and the deadline combined with lack of material meant they needed to add a timeclock to it so you have to play it many times because they are convinced we want to see Lightning's crazy new outfit as often as possible.
It all started with that stupid light-beam-from-head-to-head battle system though.
I completely disagree about the combat. I found FFXII better than any FF except FFT.
Begrudgingly I'll have to admit FFVII was the downfall or wayward turning point for the series. It was so massively popular that every game since is to be held against an unreasonably high standard.
I loved FFX and X2 which surprised me how much I really did enjoy it (100 levels of bevelle) dress sphere system, revisiting Spira for the last time.
For me personally where it went downhill was with FF12.
I'll admit
I've never played it. I watched my friend play the game long enough to realize you weren't really a "player" as you were more of a coach, taking a sidestep from being involved in the action to deciding a lineup and subsequent moves for each attack/defend.
The point where I lost interest was when I witnessed my friend laying the controller down on the floor for a half hour never needing to make another independent choice during the length of an entire boss fight.
It should be said that from a business aspect – Square lost the most money on designing and producing FF: Spirits within and Final Flight of the Osiris thus needing the merger with Enix to stay alive.
Last edited by Amnesiac on 6/2/2013 11:44:25 PM
You might not have played it, but your observations are dead on.
The FF series took a downward turn after whatever FF game you like best 😉 So for me, every game after 9 sucks, obviously.
We too often overlook FFXI. That's where the downfall started. FFXII kind of recouped the series by moving back towards RPG. But it wasn't a jRPG, that's for sure. And isn't Final Fantasy (I-X) SUPPOSED TO BE synonymous with the pinnacle of jRPGs? Without that element, Final Fantasy lost its identity, and it therefore lost its core audience.
Its overlooked because FF11 is amazing. I played it for several years, and it has one of the best stories in any Final Fantasy period.
The only problem was in the beginning it was spread out with a huge grind that you would get a good chunk of story but then have to grind to get to the next chunk.
It is much easier now, but still that game was and still is a true Final Fantasy game only it was online with others.
There are so many secrets, side quests, and things to do that people are still playing it today.
I'm surprised you failed to mention am extremely important event that happened right before things started to get….odd: the Enix merger
Up to that point, Square had been going very strong, both in Final Fantasy and in other titles as well. But once the added the hyphen, they started making curious decisions. Which is not to say that they didn't produce good or even great games after the merge. But most downfalls start gradually. The sequel to X, the MMO, the return to a previous title (among other changes in XII); none of these were bad games, per se, but who can honestly say they were on par with what had come before?
Saying it started with is too simple, IMO. You don't have that drastic a drop in quality that quickly. First you have a good game instead of a great one. Then you have an ok game instead of a good one and so forth until youve arrived at where we stand currently. And as you look back at Final Fantasy and Square as a whole, things changed when Enix got brought on and it wasn't for the good. Things had just been so great prior to then that it took 15-20 years for us to realize what had happened.
FFXI
FFXIII was disastrous, they fixed everything that was bad in FFXIII with FFXIII-2, but then everything that was good about FFXIII also went out the window.
So yea, there you have it, brainless staffs at SE.
FFXI was an MMORPG and I never really took it seriously. Besides, FFXII was a great RPG in my eyes.
I can pinpoint the moment. It was when the top 100 people at SE gathered around a screen with a picture of America on it and they were all thinking "Now, based on CoD and so forth, what do we think these people want?"
Well, with FFVII it could also mean during that time when it was becoming monopolized with the extra sequel movies, and the spin-off Dirge of Cerberus that somehow made it become the favorite to hate..
Then again, there are those that just can't stand FFVIII for its flawed battle system, involving too much time drawing magic or having to 'break' the game by junctioning magic to give your character higher attack power since grinding on levels does more harm than good for you. Only complaint I've ever heard about FFIX was the art style, that gives it a childish appearance.
Though, I believe it was a combination of the movie Final Fantasy: Spirits Within flopping, and then the merge with Square and Enix. After Final Fantasy X and X-2, they've been experimental hoping to find a true successor to the supposed 'outdated' turn-based battle system that they're desperating trying to move on from. Their later games are fine and all, but their quality is sitting at about average now compared to their original gems.
Last edited by VampDeLeon on 6/3/2013 1:48:04 AM
The downfall for Square and FF came when they merged with Enix. They've had games that were pretty bad ass. Although FF12 is to this day my favorite, squaresoft used to have an amazing catalog of games: tobal, bushido blade, Xenogears, etc. All of that stopped. They lost their way to compete with the western market.
Also to blame is the increasing cost of developing games. They could no longer take the risks in creativity that they used to and tried to play it safe with FF13. Also the game ended up butchered do to the 360 port. I read reports that they had towns that were developed, but ended up being removed…obviously because the 360 didn't have blu-ray >:/
my $0.02
I would say that the decline first hit with X-2. not that I hate it or thought it was particularly bad, but it started the departure to try and grab more players. The story was a mess. You could say that FFXI helped contribute as well in that it alienated much of the fan base by using the a numbered final fantasy for an MMORPG. I know I was alienated.
>> April 1, 2003
Talk about a foolish day! That is when it all went wrong. That is when they became "Square Enix." Since then, they have been a company making games in the board room, based on market analytics, and not creative drive. FF13 was simply the game which woke everyone up to that fact. The creators can only make what the executives approve, and sadly, they think that we want non-stop action in our JRPGs.
I've never been much of an RPG fan myself, and never even liked JRPGs (just found them incredibly boring), so I can't speak for you guys when it comes to this genre or the changes that come to it. But this is a gaming website that I love to read, and I don't want to tell people what they should and shouldn't like to play. Some praise the decisions made for the change, others vilify Square for it because they refuse to stick to a tried-and-true formula that clicked with gamers. I just don't see this whole Final Fantasy ordeal as an industry-breaking catastrophe. They've had countless releases bearing the Final Fantasy name; I'm sure after this boils over they'll go back to making more games with the formula that resonated well with critics and gamers before.
A similar case is with Insomniac and the Ratchet & Clank series. Look at their Trilogy games; they all share the same gameplay formula across all platforms, with minor changes. Then they made Deadlocked, All 4 One, and Full Frontal Assault, but these games have one thing in common: They haven't been pursued as full-scale projects after release. They're spinoff, one-shot titles that the dev possibly made for fun, for the hell of it, or even to kill time until their next project, and then they made the good stuff again.
Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, just blowing off a little steam. :S
I try my best to finish games. No matter how horrible or boring they get to me. There's been some instances where i just couldn't bring myself to complete some games. Borderlands would be first, not because of the game because its boring without friends to play with. Theres an example.
FF13 is designed for single player. Meaning, i shouldn't need friends to play it. Instead of that, i get gorgeous visuals with everything else…. Not being so gorgeous. It was a complete and utter punch in the stomach from what i grew up with. A character i could relate to, a world i could immerse in, a story i could retell without sighing, and finally, pretty compilation of polygons.
FF13 had NO story and people who tell me how amazing it is makes me slightly depressed. Characters were… I don't think i could explain it better than saying it was like a Kardashian thing. Nothing but drama (i see it on yahoo news when i check my email, i don't waste me time reading that stuff, just the headlines). The world and story speak for themselves. And half the time i wanted to offer the girls something to eat. Being that skinny can't be healthy.
I'd get started on FF13-2 but i don't want to suffer another aneurysm. But i'll just say one thing. If lightning never existed in the first game, wouldn't half if not all of the events have not happened? Lightning did save most of the characters. GAH!! and theres a freaking 3rd one?!?!? I decided to jump into memory lane and i watched the reveal trailer song for ffvs13. The guy posted the video 6 years ago. He has all this hilarious anotations on the video now giving all these FF13 sequel names.
"FF13-3-3 :lightning returns again. FF13- Lightnings revenge. FF13 When lightning struck cloud. FF13 Lighting strikes again. FF13-2 lightning strikes twice." There was more but i couldnt help but laugh. Oh and he put in a quote from the writer of FF13. He basically says that Lightning needs to be in every game because she has an amazing personality and a great sense of humor. And if he could, he would go back in time and change every lead character in FF to lightning. I hope i don't break a rule but if anyone reading this wants to watch the video heres the name. "Final Fantasy Versus XIII – "Somnus" by Yoko Shimomura" Anyway, FF13 is what started this.
Oh, i lol'd at the guy who called Ben a wuss. Some people amaze me.
When it comes to Final Fantasy there is nothing bigger in the industry for me.When I think back the answer is not all that complex. I was when Square-Enix formed. Now this is not just an attack on Enix, they're a more than competent company. But after projects like Final Fantasy X-2 and Star Ocean 3 were finished we began to see much less games being developed by both companies. I Imagine Squaresoft and Enix had them two tiles on there go when they formed and I don't think either title suffered from the merge – Even if I dislike Final Fantasy X-2, I believe that was how it was intended to be.
When you look at Sqauresoft, they were releasing so many other titles before the merge. From Front Mission mecha robots, to Parasite Eve's action horror survival to The Bouncer's Streets of Rage. They were tacklinga very diverse range of games. Then it all just stopped. The majority of what we have had are ports on portable consoles. Which is just such a shame. Oh course now Square-Enix has just bought out licenses Like Hitman, Deus-Ex and Tomb Raider but they're not really Square games are they?
So where did Final Fantasy slip. With XII. I admit I personally dislike this game for many reasons but I will try remain un-bias. The key problem is Hiroshi Minagawa, who made the Tactics Orge games along with Vagrant Story and a few other games which all thrive of a similar setting some even included in Ivallice. The problem is the feel of this game relates more to them game than a Final Fantasy. Other than XII the only other Final Fantasy he is credited for is Final Fantasy IX – Where he got a special thanks. The rest of his work is on the Tactics games which once again feel more like the Orge series than part of the Final Fantasy series.
But it goes beyond just the aesthetics, the game also traded the focus of the story being character driven to being purely focused on the political confrontation of the region. In doing so they made the majority of the characters bland and to be honest, none of the had much of a back story which became a conflicting point in the story. Other than Balthier – Who was the saving grace of the game. Not only did Balthier have charisma, he also had an interesting back story with the Judges and the confrontation with his Uncle which becomes a big event in the game. None of the other characters had such an attachment to the story. Vaan was just along for the ride and he brings Penelo too.. it really was that plain.
The combat also didn't help, feeling much more routed to an MMO (Because of XI obviously.) it made the departure seem even more grand. I found myself just using attack and a few buff spells for the majority of the game. The licence board was just a chore When I buy a weapon it should be available to use and once again the characters had not distinguished weapon, though I kept Balthier with a gun it just made the characters feel less formed.
I could go on, with the music, the sidequests being just battles. How other games with previous FF creators like Lost Odyssey felt more like a Final Fantasy but you get the idea.
Since then, we had XIII, which I honestly liked. It had problems but it brought back a unique world and characters who are really attached to a progressing story. XIII-2 fell below what I expected of a Final Fantasy and just became so convoluted and now this Lightning Returns game feels more like a spin off than the Final Fantasy XIII-3 it is claiming to be. I am now just holding out for Final Fantasy XV and hoping S-E can start a fresh. Just do not make it an Xbox exclusive…
hate you all lol ffxii was a great game and the first ff i owned myself (borrowed all others). i put the standard amount of fantasy hours into it and more.
it really has to be xiii. it had no resonance to me at all for the first time in the series. maybe thats from all the bad publicity. but hey all i know is that if i want a game, no matter how average, then i will get it – and i do not have ffxiii haha
I believe FFX was the first FF to truely stray from the FF core. Taking away the world map was the number one thing I noticed about X along with the fact that they took away the ability to name your playable characters in which the series from then on continued to remove more and more core aspects. I don't understand how no one notices that.
I know X had some differences, but it still had the Final Fantasy feel – that sense of a huge quest ahead of you and a team of characters all with their own motive. I should note in VIII you can only name Rinoa and Squall so that is not entirely new. I do see what you mean by the world map, but in X I felt that was so well covered by the pilgrimage, how you travel from place to place travelling over seas and mountains many times. I felt the variety of areas help expand that, while in XII I cannot distinguish one town from another. The only thing that I did not care for in X was the sphere grid – I would be happy for all that content of choosing your upgrades to be done automatically through a leveling system.
Ah, the sphere grid. The precursor to the leveling system in XIII. XII had something similar to it that was worse than XIII. I say that mainly because of the rediculousness of just how overbearing the system was on what you could do but how much you could do once you get pretty far into it. FFX never had as much of an epic feel as the PS1 era games, it felt much smaller even though they tried to compensate for that with the calm lands. Still getting the HD X and X-2 so I can play through them again since I haven't in a while.