Ben-DutkaThere was a time when I took great pride in conquering difficult games. I'm still not quite sure how I finished Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox.
However, as time has passed, gaming has become more about relaxation and de-stressing, as opposed to excitement and the thrill of overcoming a challenge. Perhaps it's easily explained by the aforementioned passage of time; maybe I'm just not as interested in "conquering" as I get older.
The problem is, there's always a certain line. For most of us, for those who aren't super hardcore, crossing that line means that playing games has become a chore. It's just no longer fun. And as I still enjoy solving the occasional difficult puzzle and taking down the occasional difficult boss, I can't say I only want to play easy games. That's really not true. What is true, though, is that clearly, my line has shifted. It just used to be farther along; now, I cross it sooner, and I think it's just because I've got a lot more to do these days.
At the end of a long day, I don't have much interest in white knuckles, sweaty palms, and gritted teeth. I don't mind concentrating and doing my best but at some point, the difficulty begins to chafe and I just get bored. I start to think I could be doing something else, something that actually relaxes and de-stresses me, like reading a book. I still have the capacity to be vigilant and even stubborn but I no longer have the patience to be total, full-on hardcore. And that's why in the past, I've spoken out in favor of easier games as compared to the games of yesteryear. Now I can have more fun; it's not only about barely surviving, it's about fun .
So at what point do you start viewing games as a chore? How difficult does a game have to be before you finally start to go, "You know, this just isn't entertaining anymore"?
The way I view it for myself is that if its too easy there is no satisfaction in playing it. When the gameplay feels like it is trying to make me feel like I'm a badass but really anyone can push X and get the same results, I get bored and just dont want to play the game.
I like challenging myself constantly in life, whether it is playing hard video games, pushing myself physically(in a sensible way), or training my brain with puzzles. I just feel satisfied only if I met some resistance along the way in a game.
My friends and I are starting work on a game and the more I learn about programming the more I can kind of pick out bad design in terms of difficulty. Bigger HP bars, more dmg, better aim etc are all cheap easy ways of making a game harder. What I really like is when in a games hard mode, the boss has an extra form, or pattern or something like that. That to me is a well designed hard game.
My line has actually gone up over the years of playing games. I used to get anxious playing hard games, or even starting a game on normal that was considered hard.
But now my mentality is simple, I think to myself this game, no matter how hard has a solution and I will figure it out.
I think I am going through that change right now!
I would normally play a game on Normal or Easy the first time, but the last couple of games i've played over the past few weeks I have started to think "you know what, Normal is just too easy these days".
But yeah, difficult games always have a solution, you just need to find it.
You make the JRPG?
@World
Basically we want to make a game that is like dark souls, mixed with zelda, mixed with kingdom hearts 🙂 Not necessarily hard like dark souls, but we both like the weight and feel combat has. We want it to be like that only a bit faster and less unforgiving. We want the responsiveness of early zelda games, and the jumping and platforming of kingdom hearts 😀
The gameplay will be like zelda only with a deeper combat system. I will be mocapping the weapon strikes and enemy reactions and stuff like that. By mocap I mean very primitive stuff, hes going to film me then put it into the computer and kind of work with it in there, copying it and making a skeleton etc.
The game will have a lot of cool stuff for people who like to explore and just try things. We want to make a game that doesn't say NOPE can't do that so here is an invisible wall. We want it to either kill you, OR if you play around you get to a secret area, or the next area faster. We really don't want any artificial barriers.
So it will feel like a jrpg in some regards. But eventually we do want to make a really big awesome JRPG similar to legend of dragoon, dragon quest, and the old final fantasy games. But first we are going to do something like this. I think it is easier to balance a real time combat system than balancing out turn based games.
@Akuma- Good job man! I felt the same way. I also put things on hard because the game would last me longer 😛
In regards to "seeing the code" in the games after you started designing a game yourself I *so* know what you mean.
But did you ever get anywhere with the game design you guys started on? I did start on a game myself as part of learning a game engine, but hit a brick wall with the graphics design. I am no graphical designer, and without one, I could never finish. 🙁
WHat language are you coding in Xenris?
Well my friends is going to be doing the coding mostly. He is using python and he is going to start with panda3D. I am the combat advisor, and kind of like the animation guy. I'm going to help him make sure there aren't any stiff animations and that the combat looks and feels right.
I will eventually learn and do some of the coding but he is more interested in it and ahead of me at this point.
I will be doing some art as well. We both are artistic and will be contributing some hand drawn textures.
We basically want the graphics to be full 3D and have amazing animation, like grass, great character movement, fluid looking and feeling combat etc.
To do this the game is going to be lower poly. It will probably look better than Minecraft but we are using that philosophy. Make the game lower polygon to save resources for more ambitious stuff 🙂 I mean it will look technically better than minecraft we aren't going for a blocky look. We want to just save resources and use them for more important stuff, like making sure the input is perfectly responsive, and stuff like that.
We are just in the middle of starting things Beam so we haven't really gotten anywhere yet but we don't plan on giving up 🙂
Last edited by xenris on 5/9/2013 11:56:07 AM
I hope the best for you guys. Are you using Blender or something for the 3D modeling and animation ?
Last edited by Temjin001 on 5/9/2013 1:24:13 PM
He said something about blender I think. I'm not sure though but yeah I think.
… But weren't you the modeller/animator, Xenris? What software do you use for that?
Last edited by Beamboom on 5/9/2013 5:05:46 PM
No I am going to be used as the animation guy. Like he is going to mocap me doing movements and stuff. Or our primitive version of mocap. I just today starting looking at python. I'm not doing the modelling, I am going to be helping a lot with the animations though. Helping until I learn how to do everything myself.
But yeah, we are using Python and blender.
This is more my friend making the game that we both would talk about. I am going to help do the actual work eventually but right now I'm just helping in every other way I can 🙂
Python is a good starting point for strongly typed languages. It lets you get away with things other languages don't which is great for beginners. I may pick up a Python book some day as I skipped that course from my university because my C++ skills obtained from my community college already exceeded the principles taught in our Python course. So for me I went right into Java, then C.
For me it's when the difficulty is due to poor design. (See Knight's Contract)
Well done, difficult games, I love no matter how often I die. (See Dark/Demon Souls)
Totally agree.
Well if a game is too easy, then I at least want it to be fun, if it's a total blast then I don't really care how easy it is, but if a game is really hard then it has to make sense for it to be that hard.
Honestly, most games that I have found difficult, are just difficult because of bullshit. In MGR, I found that my Revengeance playthrough was very hard during the boss fights ONLY because of mechanics that didn't work for me when I wanted them to, like a parry that didn't activate or activated in the wrong direction, this is probably because of my own fault, but it was the reason why it was so hard.
But at the end of the day, it must always be satisfying to beat a game, whether it was easy or insanely hard. Getting the MGR Platinum was one of the most satisfying gaming experiences I've ever had.
I live busy fully loaded days near always and on some nights I do want to exert effort and other nights I don't. I don't see too much of a correlation here for myself. It just depends on how I feel at that time.
I think a person's disposition to handle death or lose is the real thing here. If dieing or losing feels overly frustrating to a person and they're just 'in it' for the experience, like watching a movie and just 'feeling' the interaction or something, then having a game that makes them think too hard to survive is probably not the best fit for this person. Which is fine, some people just want to feel it, feel it like Journey and be entertained like that.
ANd to see what Underdog said above me. It's a lot like that. If the game is good and dieing doesn't frustrate you because you're not wired like that, but instead a problem solver, it's a very fulfilling experience. It's not about coming off conqueror it's about learning the game play with a game that holds you accountable for your actions. That's what's fun for me at least.
I'm pretty much where you are Ben, if I'm dying like 15 times and didn't do anything wrong or stupid then the game is just being unreasonable imo. Dying and starting over just to learn how to get by is an outdated, memory based form of gaming. I don't want to be punished and made to waste time when I'm there to have fun. A challenge is good, but the hardest difficulty settings are for the lunatic masochists and it shouldn't bleed into the human difficulties.
If it's a well made game you won't even notice how easy or hard it is.
More easy games please. I get laid often and don't need all the stress of hard videogames.
Ok. I m really just old, fat, and lazy and it is more fun to me to play easy, but fun games, like Defiance, Pacman, and rpgs.
End of line.
Wow, just wow.
Thats interesting…
Is this a cry for help?
My sarcasm sense is tingling
The level of difficulty you find in old school ROV's is perfect.
ff topic finally finished FF7 after multiple broken disc and formatted saves fast forward 15 years I beat it last year and then a week later my ps3 hard drive gave out on me =( now I'm working on 8 I've mad it to the end of FF8 three times wish me luck lol games will never get as good as these old school rip squaresoft… Secret of mana or Xenogears next once again got to the end of both never finished. Secret of mana formatted and I lost my memory card for xenon gears haha bad luck right?
sounds to me your life is trying to tell you to become a PC gamer =p
HA! Last game I played major on pc waaaaaas Diablo 2 man I was addicted. I'll stick to my console gaming don't see a reason to switch
Last edited by jjlive168 on 5/9/2013 1:23:03 AM
I don't have the time to suffer hard games anymore, I want to have good and satisfying experiences every time I turn on my PS3.
Have Demons Souls ready to be played, but I don't know if I'm gonna like it.
Usually play on normal and if I like the game there is a huge possibility to be replayed on harder.
If you get around to playing demon souls here is the rule of thumb. Always keep your shield up going into a room. If you go into a new room run forward shield up then run out of the room and see what new friends you made.
Also watch the stamina bar. Pay attention to that and you will be fine. Dont mash, take pokes at the enemy or go for a parry and counter attack.
Also, watch out for high places where you can drop off or accidentally roll off, and trap mechanisms on the ground.
If the overall experience for the player feels rewarding, then that's fine. I just hate what I consider trial and error games. Basically when you don't have time to react to an event unless you had ESP and knew it was going to happen. That truly steams me the worst. Grinding has just grown old to me over the years. I played Demon's Souls for about 3 days and was like "Yup, screw this." I used to grind on FF7 forever. I guess I don't really have time to game hardcore like I did when I was a wee rascal. Sinking hundreds of hours in to a single game just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Well, there's the exception of Skyrim 🙂
For me it entirely depends on the game, and the kind of difficulty.
If I understand *why* I failed, then the motivation remains for a while. Or if I am spawned at a slightly different place, something that gives me a chance of trying out something different or even a hint as to how to better solve the challenge.
But if I am wading in utter darkness, having no idea why I died or how to avoid it, well then it doesn't take long before I get tired of it.
Or if the entire sequence is basically one long QTE. Like that bloody Heavenly Sword game. Yes I said it. Good grief, those boss fights.
Also, it depends on the game itself, the atmosphere, story, the game universe. If I get immersed into it I can take more punishment. If, on the other hand, the game is just a "time waster", well then I usually throw away the game the moment I hit a wall.
Last edited by Beamboom on 5/9/2013 1:49:35 AM
http://m.computerandvideogames.com/404826/new-details-for-infamous-second-son/
Well looks like Infamous is a launch title.
I like hard games sometimes. I don't play a lot of them but when I do, I'm always excited to beat a level. The thing about it is that if it's a difficult game, I like it to be just so even from the beginning. If it's a game where the difficulty grows exponentially, I don't find it fun. That's when it truly becomes a chore. I think the Xbox Ninja Gaiden took me almost 3 weeks at the time. When I beat Alma for the first time, my cousins and I cheered (at the time they were visiting) and even thinking about it right now fills me with pride. When I played Demon's Souls, and beat the Armored Spider, it was the same feeling. I never played Dark Souls because "Demon's" was enough for me, but I think it's all about the implementation of the difficulty. For example, I don't think they should make Dark Souls 2 easier. It's not that some people are masochists. It's just a very rewarding thing to be experience. But again, I also enjoy easy games. Take Heavy rain for example. There isn't any difficulty. It was just fun to go through it while rooting for Ethan Mars.
I always start on the highest difficulty possible. I couldn't possibly answer your question.
totally depends on how you define difficulty.
if you define difficulty as hard but fair then theres no such thing as tedious and a chore.
tedious chores, frustration, comes in when the game becomes cheap and unfair, when you feel the game is cheating.
for instance the final boss battles for mortal kombat shaolin monks, you have to defeat what is it 4? of the hardest characters in the game with ONE set of health!
ONE!
now thats cheating and unfair!
another perfect example of difficulty because of cheapness is deamon souls.
fork in the road, one way is easy one way is impossible.
but NOTHING tells you which way is which.
its not difficult when the game does not give you the resources and information you need, that is the text book definition of cheapness!
another perfect example of cheapness is metro 2033.
such a brilliant game, but also so freaking annoying!
the WHOLE point of the game is savanging, scrounging for resources.
ammo is VERY limited, and its also the currency for the game so you need ammo to shoot things, AND to buy things.
but yet its in very short supply.
here you go heres 5 dollars to pay the weekly bills, fill up the cars, do the grocery shopping, and go have some fun.
yea, something tells me 5 bucks aint enough!
O, and to make things worse there is always tons of monsters attacking you, and they take tons of ammo to kill.
it would not be so bad if they were 2 shot kills, and there was only a small number of them.
but there not, there bullet sponges and theres tons of them!
so now all of a sudden that 5 dollars has become 5 dollars, but you have to fill up a ferrari not a ford focus eco.
you have to buy your groceries from the posh expensive place, you have to eat at a 5 star restaurant not at maccas.
turns a bad situation worse.
that is the textbook definition of cheapness!
forcing people to do something, but making it nigh on impossible for them to do so.
i love difficult games, especially theres so many 2D platformers out there that do it so well.
spelunky and super meat boy for instance, 2 brutally difficult games but there designed so well there not cheap or frustrating.
there just so addictive and so much fun despite the millions of times you will die because of the high trial and error nature of the game.
I remember the first time I played MGS2.
Fighting 30 Metal Gear Rays. That was all kinds of awesome.
I guess when you think about that, Raiden does seem like he was always a bad ass.
Demon souls and Dark souls both tell you where to go if you pay attention and talk to the NPCs. Because the game doesn't force your hand some people explored the wrong way. I would imagine you are talking about the beginning of dark souls where a lot of people explored the skeleton graveyard instead of heading up to the undead burg?
See the problem with that is there are a couple NPCs to talk to and they say you have to ring two bells.
I guess I can't tell you the game isn't hard but the part you thought was hard was purely from your inability to put a small amount of effort into talking to NPCs that are literally right in front of you when you get out of the undead asylum.
all this talk about the Souls games makes me wish I would have spent more time with them. I still have Demon's Souls sitting on my shelf (IN A BLASTED RED GREATEST HITS CASE ARGH!).
thats exactly the point though you shouldent have to look for the answers, they should be there in front of you.
neir is a perfect example of how things should be done.
you had access to the whole world so there were tons of monsters you could not stand against until you had raised your levels.
and it was obvious in so many ways where the higher level beasts are so you can stay a good distance from them.
not waltz in, kill me, then say oh by the way you need to get to 6 hours into the game before you have a chance to fight this beast.
yea……. its a bit late now!
another perfect example of that, like as i said above the final boss battle for MK shaolin monks is SO hard!
but theres actually a secret way down to the basement which gives you access to a health replenishment whenever you want to use it.
you shouldent have to go scowering every millimeter of the game to find that, the game should tell you yourself.
i felt so cheated when i FINALLY finished the game, then a friend told me about the secret room and i just screamed OH YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SH*TTING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i spent months trying to finish that god dam battle, finally did it to find out i could of made life SO much easier for myself!
Well ______________ you can technically beat all of Dark Souls without leveling, and indeed you can do it in Demon souls as well.
I dont know what to tell you. The dude you have to talk to is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU when you arrive at firelink shrine. The fact that you were too lazy to talk to him is your fault not the games, or game design.
Old RPGs, Zelda and other games required you to try things out like talking to people, or searching the walls for hidden switches.
Plus dying in Dark Souls means nothing. Oh no you died, why not try EXPLORING and going another way? If you play Dark Souls, the lay out of the area you start in the game tries to lead you intuitively into going the right way. But the people who explored went the wrong way and then thought the game was unfairly hard and quit. Instead of you know just doing what they did in the first place and explore another direction.
I get that the Souls games aren't everyones cup of tea, but calling the game bad because you were too lazy to talk to the NPC you start standing in front of is just ridiculous to me. It is like you have never played a game before.
Temjin, if you have time I highly recommend them. They just scratch this itch that only older games could scratch.
yah, my brother has shown me his characters and gave me a pseudo documentary of the game play, how it works, what makes it special, etc. so I'm pretty familiar with what it can offer me. I totally see the hardcore gameplay-centric design, which I love, over the more lazy content driven stuff so many games thrive on today.
My problem is that I like too many games. I'm a victim of my own love for the entertainment. To many games with so little time. I look at the Souls games as potential time sinks that could derail me from being current in popular gaming hits. Fighters alone do this a lot as it is.
Last edited by Temjin001 on 5/9/2013 12:48:38 PM
Yeah man, souls will take your time away 😛 Especially if you get hooked on the PVP.
I really do not enjoy difficult games. The only time I like to replay part of a game is when I am taking another run through the whole thing. It's just an unnecessary inconvenience.
On the occasions I have persevered and overcome a difficult part of a game I have never felt a sense of achievement, merely frustration at time wasted.
I always play on easy or normal, kick back with my feet up and stroll through. The more fluidly I can get from start to finish the more likely I am to pick it up and try again.
I get stressed enough at work without getting it from my hobby.
I hate hard game when it s more about luck then skills and having to think about how to proceed .
Hate game that you don t care about dying cause there is checkpoint every 5 min ( Uncharted among many other these days ) .Not a fan either of Rpg that are so easy that all customization possible become non important .No need to be frustrating hard , just that at least thinking just a bit about how to build you re character is important and having a sense of " i may die if i just smash buttons " .
So you can bet i can t wait to play dark souls 2 ( hopefully a King field game in the future too ) 🙂 or for Resident evil to get back to a survival horror game .
All in all , hate games that a Zombie could play and beat .
Last edited by berserk on 5/9/2013 8:30:14 AM
With a family and job I just don't have time anymore to play games on a difficult setting. I now select "Easy" difficulty on every new game I play because I want to enjoy the story and the gameplay and the discovery of the world. Even playing on Medium has become a chore for me.
I tried playing Demon's Souls and I knew it would be hard but I desperately wanted to experience Boletaria and the awesome monsters and bosses. I love fantasy RPGs. But dieing so much and having to replay the same level over and over without any hope of getting through it, I just gave up after only a few hours in and traded the game in. I did recently download it for free with PS+ but I know I'll never play it.
I'm really sad that I will never get to experience that game. I dream of a day they patch the game with an Easy difficulty.
i prefer playing games on easy or medium difficulty.
if a game has no difficulty setting, i'd prefer games that
fall in the medium difficulty.
Anyone tried playing Catherine on hard difficulty? That's one if not the hardest game this generation. It will make you pull your hair out lol. I enjoy difficult games especially if they're JRPGs.
I do not. See, gaming is by far the single most action I perform best. I have an entire system of self-imposed rules and regulations that I set upon myself when playing which allows me to play for my enjoyment and unwind. Only once I play a game and fully enjoy the story and experience, does the hunt begin (for trophies…) and I consider it work. Once I obtain my Platinum, the game is put back and is solely a "play for enjoyment" game again, this time indefinitely.