Ben-DutkaFor the record, I don't disagree with industry icon Warren Spector when he says the "ultraviolence" in video games has to stop .
I might also agree we've gone too far, or are perhaps right on the verge of going too far. While I firmly believe in the freedom of expression, I also believe there's always a line and once that line is crossed, the product shifts from artistic expression to unnecessary pandering with no substance or redeeming value.
However, as is always the case with such sticky situations, we need an operational definition for the term that is generating argument and discussion. In this case, there's a term and a phrase: "Ultraviolence" and "We've gone too far." Obviously, no one person can definitively say we've crossed the aforementioned line, and everyone's definition of violence differs greatly. It's exceedingly difficult to get anywhere when some of the more jaded don't see anything as "ultraviolent" anymore, and the extremely conservative see a knife in someone's hand as "going too far."
The inherent problem is that because gaming is interactive and not passive, like movies, players need at least some form of action to remain interested. Now, it doesn't necessarily have to be violent, but nobody wants to play a game about mowing a lawn or grocery shopping. Heck, even romance is basically out, unless you talk about those odd Japanese dating sims which have essentially zero chance of becoming popular in this country. The bottom line is that we have to be doing something and on top of which, it really needs to be something we can't do in real life. That's part of the purpose; it needs to be an escapist fantasy.
So where's the boundary? And can we only rely on common sense to determine if we've gone too far? You'll never satisfy everyone, of course, but at what point does a game become more about pandering than legitimate entertainment?
I ate a large Italian meal during my 2nd viewing of The Human Centipede 2. I don't think there is enough gore and violence in the current games that claim to be full of the stuff.
Just like snuff, if you don't like it don't watch it.
Man that movie was gross. Love me some Italian.
LOL yes it sure was. Certainly a horrible movie but funny at the same time.
I make a delicious veal Parmesan.
Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 6/18/2012 9:55:31 PM
ever see the south park where they do the human centipad? that was a gross episode. but it also contains one of the best parts with cartman. when hes at best buy with his mom. "why dont you go across the street and buy me some condoms. cuz we should at least be safe if your going to **** me mom! you might at well go buy me some cigs to cuz i want to have a smoke after you **** me mom."
today on Dr. Phil: the tragic story of a little boy whose mother constantly tries to **** him.
Last edited by frylock25 on 6/18/2012 10:57:26 PM
Oh yes, a wonderful episode. I don't care for Apple and I loved that Kyle got screwed over for not reading the "terms and conditions". Ha!
Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 6/18/2012 11:02:44 PM
no way it does email and web browsing and it shi$s in kyles mouth!
yes but can it read?
"Could we at least pull up here and get some dinner? Because I like to be wined and dined after I've been ****ed."
One of my favourite episodes ever.
"Ultraviolence" always makes me think of A Clockwork Orange. I guess it's difficult for me to try to say where that line is because personally I can handle any level of violence but I know in the wrong hands it can disrupt some people's regular thought patterns. I think legitimacy is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
I know there's probably a lot of people who don't think Lollipop Chainsaw was legitimate entertainment. Hell I don't think reality TV is legitimate entertainment and it has nothing to do with violence and everything to do with pandering.
I'd like to know if Temjin felt Ninja Gaiden III was pandering to blood enthusiasts. Might pick it up at some point.
I'm pretty sure games with gore goes against the teachings of Joseph Smith.
"What we were after now was the old surprise visit. That was a real kick and good for laughs and lashings of the old ultraviolent."
Great movie
Wait! I did think of something that was too much for me. I don't remember the name but the movie was about that real case in Germany where the two dudes met up for the express purpose of them eating one guy's penis and then the rest of him after he died. That sh*t disturbed the hell out of me.
Find out what the movie is, I must watch this.
Also I suggest watching the movie Inside. It's a French horror movie from 2007. It's about a pregnant woman alone in her home and another woman outside that wants her baby.
Grimm Love LV. It probably won't phase you but I didn't sleep so well that night.
Thanks. Ah, Keri Russel I was a big fan of her in the 90s.
Oh yes, she needed some special World romancin'
The name of the German film is "Cannibal" and yes, it was weird as hell. The look on the guys face as he takes a bite is priceless though.
"We did all this sh$% for me to eat your penis and it tastes like crap"
At least, that's what it looked like he wanted to say.
Weird, I just realised we're talking about two different films about pretty much the same thing. I do believe Cannibal is much much much more gruesome than Grimm Love though, as it depicts everything in vivid detail. LV, give it a watch, came out in 06 and you can find it if you look for it hard enough.
Last edited by coverton341 on 6/19/2012 10:58:13 AM
No offense, but you people are really sick in the head if you can watch shit like that.
Naw, people without kids who watch Pixar movies are sick in the head.
Hope that movie is on netflix! I wanna watch it too.
@World, lol, just lol.
@Thehighlander As well no offence to anyone but that stuff is ****ed up and I never wanna even hear about that let alone watch it but I got a couple friends who watch all that stuff and always try to trick me into watching it(bastards lol).
Last edited by SixSpeedKing on 6/19/2012 6:53:41 PM
yea im not into watching that gross kind of shit. id have to agree with highlander on this one. anyone ever get tricked into watching that "two girls and a cup" internet video? i had multiple friends try to get me with that one. i refused to watch it.
I for one enjoy the comedic value of so called "ultraviolence". Like in Mortal Kombat or Fallout 3. Sometimes you just can't help but laugh at the ridiculousness of these over the top fatalities and V.A.T.S. slow mo kills.
Now have they gone too far? Maybe, but it's not like other people in different mediums of entertainment don't already push boundaries in their own ways, wether it be with sex, violence, religion, etc.
Nice shot of Fallout 3 😉
hehe don't really know. MK seemed to be the first game to "cross the line" if I remember right. I remember how kids and I in middle school would talk during gym class, "yeah, you rip a guy;s heart out… cool!" referencing the arcade of course because it took Nintendo a while to spill the blood. Anyone play Gears of War 2? There's like a level in there where you;re literally walking through the inside of a flesh and blood living thing, sawing arteries with saws and swimming around in blood. It was just silly, actually. I think when it goes too far at times it just seems sort of stupid.
Yeah, we've been killing basically everything since.. since Pac-Man.. no wait, ghosts are already dead. Asteroids are rocks, not living things either, unless you ask Yoda 😉 Pong is.. pong. But anyway, Journey comes to mind as an example for others to follow, right?. So while violent games are like PB and J for videogames, it would be nice to see more creativity taken. That Game Company seems to be trying new stuff.
I think it comes down to a mixture of things. I'm fine with movies like Driving Miss Daisy but I also like to watch movies like High Tension.
I think there will always be an abundance of violent games in comparison to the Indy art style games like Journey.
"Once that line is crossed, the product shifts from artistic expression to unnecessary pandering with no substance or redeeming value."
So, a work that is too violent for your tastes suddenly has no redeeming value. I agree with Warren, but how can you say say a work that is unnecessarily violent doesn't also have artistic value?
Some stories require violence. Some require a lot of it. Warren's main point is that the player should feel regret when they slit someone's throat; that's not something fun. You're not driving a car or discovering treasure at that moment, you're killing a security guard with a wife and kids and PS3 at home. Of course, he's making a biased moral statement about how other people should use art. But why shouldn't he? I think it would be good for games to treat violence much more seriously.
Some people will be too disgusted with violence to play, and others won't play because they know their own vices. That's the player's responsibility. Even a brilliant wargame that revolutionizes the industry and makes the player feel the weight of their actions will be too much for some. Maybe that brilliance is the reason it's too much.
The freedom of artistic expression is one of the most important freedoms of the modern world and it definitely shouldn't be tampered with. However, artists should also be responsible. If heavy issues are treated with respect we can have games that improve the person who plays them.
Has nothing to do with "taste." I believe there is a line that can be crossed where there is no discernable purpose beyond being disgusting. Personal opinion is irrelevant.
What is wrong with being disgusting?
At that point it can only be potentially damaging and has no positive purpose.
(My mind keeps going to movies instead of games) Watch Hobo With a Shotgun, it is balls to the wall blood and guts line crossing but it's all very necessary because as an homage to 70's exploitation films it gets the art of non-CGI violence across in a very entertaining manner.
There's also Kill Bill, of course people don't spray hundreds of gallons of blood when you cut their arm off but it's part of the vision of Tarantino to bring some anime into live action violence. Part and parcel of the vision which makes it entertainment even when the gore is much more than necessary.
I've seen plenty of movies/videos that some might deem nothing but disgusting but I found them entertaining. I don't think it's fair for one person or even a group of people to draw a line. It's up to the individual to decide where their own line is.
There's no line, humans is capable of doing horrible and gruesome acts of violence, the question is where you stand and how much can you handle it. And if someone makes a game and raping children is the theme i think some pedophiles will have it. There are really sick and demented people out there. There are no limits on what humans can do either good or bad
I don't see ultraviolence in videogames at all. Even Grand Theft Auto is not crossing the line. I do believe that the new Tomb Raider has cross the line. Protecting Lara from getting rape is utterly disgusting.
The protecting her part or the rape part?
Are you trying to get this article another 100post count?
Should we not protect her and just let it happen?
We might be surprised at how many people will put the controller on the ground and be sorely disappointed.
Faith in humanity currently in question until Tomb Raider comes out.
I'm imagining what will happen if i've failed to protect her. Yeah! There's a dark side in me. Hehehe.
Protecting Lara from getting rape is utterly disgusting.
One of the dumbest things I have heard. You protect game characters from DYING all the time. Now you save LARA from an ATTEMPT rape where NOTHING HAPPENS (because anyway if you fail you die) And you find that disgusting?
I find it disgusting when Mario gets a red flower up his ASS OMG DOOD. Mario dies violated in his anus by a giant red flower with SPIKES.
You think Lara has it hard with her small *attempted rape for 5 seconds?*
WHAT HAPPENS TO PEACH WHEN YOU FAIL TO SAVE HER FROM BOWSER OMG. I am sure he gets her good and makes her *ride* HIS EVERY SPIKES…
See it's easy to make stuff up or make a scene about anything that happens in nearly ANY game:D
Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 6/19/2012 9:27:21 AM
Lara Croft, a beautiful sexy young lady, is stranded in an island full of bad guys as the plot. Reasons why Lara has to defend herself, a. Because Lara found out they're doing something illegal and they're afraid that Lara will tell police about them. B. They just hate girls and want to kill her for no reasons at all. C. They want to rape her. I'll go for A and C to deepen the game.
In a way I do agree with him, I have become tired of playing games where I just shoot things. That's why I am such a menace on online games because I try find other fun things to do instead of joining the killfest.
I think it's just the direction gaming has taken this gen. First Person Shooters are now the most popular genre. So he have had an overload of them. Then there are other tamer genre's dying out. the Platforming genre had been dead for years. For me the turning point was with Ratchet & Clank then Jak II – Because they both brought guns into the game as the primary use of offense. Of course JRPG's have there weapons, but they never focused on violence as much as modern Western RPGS's.
I guess another thing is just due to the improvement of graphics. If you shoot someone and they don't bleed it would be defined as unrealistic and people would moan. There is such a focus on realism this gen that it has made everything a little less exciting. Then of course you get the opposite end of the spectrum with games like Lollypop Chainsaw which is just silly.
I am hoping to see more games like Heavy Rain or Journey pop up, games which don require you to kill every enemy obstacle in your way. Maybe next gen the focus on popularity will change to another genre and it won't be so bad…
But the most popular games in general are not violent. Ex: angry birds, temple run, and kids do play them.
You are blowing up birds on pigs… Next thing we hear, PETA will be after them lol
Thanks for posting this, Ben.
I find the constant appeal to violence or "ultraviolence" both tiresome and unfortunate.
Tiresome in that it has become overused as a core part of gameplay. I have found myself gravitating more and more toward games that are pursuing different modes of entertainment (such as: Portal, Flower/Journey, Braid, Heavy Rain, etc). They are breaking the all too familiar mold of: Shoot enemies. Repeat. They are exploring creative gameplay mechanics and are interested in telling deep, introspective stories. I'm into that.
Unfortunate in that many games have moved from violence as a part of gameplay to glorifying violence. I think that is what Spector is really reacting to. It's not that violence in video games is ruining our kids or creating a more violent society. Rather, we have come to a point wherein we are encouraged to relish in ultraviolence, to find joy in watching our characters carry out over-the-top, incredibly gruesome acts of violence.
For games that do use violence as a part of their core gameplay, I would like to see more of a moral grappling with it (like Spector mentioned in DE:HR, he tried to make the player feel uncomfortable with super violent actions). That would add some maturity to such games. Let's make players think about their actions and why they're doing them.
I think the best example of how violence can be portrayed in a game in such a way as to shake a person to their core and make one think about what their doing can be found in Heavy Rain (granted, not a game that relies on violence as a core part of gameplay). Two scenes will always remain stuck in my mind:
*SPOILERS*
The first, of course, is the scene with Ethan and the knife. Never have I become so affected by a game than in that scene. Second, the scene when Madison has been captured and is in the basement. You are trying to get away and take out the guy, fighting for your life, using violence not because it is fun and enjoyable but because you are up against a wall and have no way out and have to get out. Neither of these scenes were *fun*, but they are experiences by which I was impacted and that I will never forget. Violence wasn't glorified, rather the gruesome reality of what violence is came to the forefront and forced the player to deal with it.
*END SPOILERS*
I have gone on for far too long now. I think that this is a worthwhile discussion (if for no other reason than that we get some games that explore different methods of entertainment, giving us gamers something new and fresh!) and hope to see it continue in the gaming community.
Well said. I think the first time I really noticed being bothered a great deal with how the industry was proceeding was during the E3 (2008?) God of War III demo, when they showed off killing some creature, slicing open its belly and watching the guts spill across the ground. I remember thinking, "This is what's supposed to get us excited and hyped for their game? What kind of sick person is into this? What kind of sick person made this?" Since then, it's only gotten worse.
I tend to head toward the same types of games that you mention, but they seem to be getting more and more crowded out on current consoles in favor of immature bloodlust. I'm spending increasing amounts of time on older consoles and the PC. The current stuff is slowly losing my attention. As you said, it's tiresome.
Speaking of movies, this whole situation with the extreme proliferation of violent, gory games lately reminds me of a quote: "Your [developers] were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they SHOULD."
Just because you CAN make super violent games in extreme detail, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. The games industry did fine for decades, producing some of the most finely crafted products of the medium, with the best stories, without extreme gore and endless barrages of profanity. Yes, there were things like Mortal Kombat, but everyone recognized them as being something which was infantile and not to be taken seriously. Now we have games which want to be taken seriously, yet are draping themselves in the trappings of Mortal Kombat-style immaturity. If this industry ever wants to be taken seriously, it has to stop. We have the audience, now we need the maturity of knowing what elements of gaming are in extreme poor taste, and to put a severe self-imposed limit on them.
I see plenty of arguments about how violence has always been part of human existence, but how does that translate into making the very worst elements of human society the prime, center focus of how we spend our leisure time? What does that say about us?
Movie audiences thankfully got tired of this "doing it because we can" nonsense after the extreme overindulgence of the 80s, relegating it to the sidelines. I can't wait for this to occur in gaming.
Like World, the word "ultraviolence" makes me immediately think of A Clockwork Orange but more specifically, sexual violence. Using that as a definition, we haven't really touched the line in mass gaming media. Should we is a different question and it depends on how it is used. If it's gratuitous and there for the mere sake of shock value, then absolutely not, but if there is reason and context for it in a serious, intelligently mature story and game design, as well as being carefully used, then why not?
On pure violence, I daresay that we have long since gone too far. Do we need graphic representations of bones breaking and skin tearing as in Syndicate and Mortal Kombat? Do we need Kratos' decapitation of Helios? Even "No Russian" and scenes of chaos found in MW3 and Ghost Recon Future Soldier are completely unnecessary. It's violence for the sake of violence and what is the point of that… ever?
Stabbings, shootings, murders, massacres, beatings. As much as we try to block our ears, these are the actions that define gaming, and that's a terrible thought. With the way the industry is heading, things are only going to get worse from here.
It's probably too far for a decent society but we have long since left decency behind and I don't see it coming back.
i think the slow motion shots of peoples heads exploding, pictured above from fallout 3, is fair definition of ultra violence.
subjective really, where does it change from just violence to ultra violence?
and is there a step in between?
apples and apples really, much of a muchness, looking for differences in 2 grains of salt.
to me the problem is not the gratuitous use of violence, just like the use of gratuitous images, cough lollipop chainsaw, for the sake of sales.
it has NOTHING to do with you dont like it, dont watch it (typical short sighted mentality!).
no, the problem to me is desensitizing to violence.
its like horror films when you first start watching them your scared really easily, but after a while you build up a immunity to them so it takes more and more extremes to break through that.
i remember when i went to go see Prometheas, ive been watching horror movies all my life so i was not scared at all!
a friend of mine though on the other hand is 6 years older than me, and never watches them and he was screaming like a little girl!
gore and violence is the same, it eventually looses its impact and narrative after a while because you just become use to it.
what was considered extremely violent and gruesome years ago is considered childs play today!
violence and gore should shock you and make you feel bad for the people involved.
prime example heavy rain, the scene where you have to cut your finger off i cringed at that scene literally made me want to throw up!
or the scene where your given instructions to go kill someone as they plead for their life in your face.
it should make you feel sorry for the victims, put a tear in your eye, not a smile on your face!
i cant help it every time i play a shooter like sniper elite v2 and blow someones head off i cant help but laugh and say pop goes the weasel.
the extreme overuse of violence has turned something shocking and tragic, into a joke.
and its sickening!
Last edited by ___________ on 6/19/2012 7:35:58 AM
Bah it just depends on the *mood* of the game. You won't go crying when killing an *enemy* in a war game. If you find that *sickening* why do you laugh when you put a bullet in a guys head in Sniper elite V2? Does not make sense.
Heavy rain is like a *Drama* where most war games are *Action*. You don't cry when James Bond shoots a bad guy. You do cry (or feel sad) when a mother has her children killed in a movie surrounding her life.
In the end a game is just a game. A movie just a movie. They tell a story and if you do not like the *type*… Don't judge and pass on it.
sigh.
no matter HOW many times you say it has NOTHING to do with not liking that style everyone still says it is.
christ, seriously, why do i bother?
really?
i might as well just talk to a brick wall, id give me less stress at least!
I have no issue what so ever with "ultraviolence". Every form of media has it and at the same time those forms are not questioned because of the overuse of violence. Games are no different, there are always gonna be both ends of the spectrum(and the crap in the middle). The thing about games, books, movies, and music is it allows you to use your imagination and play within a fantasy. You know I have heard a dozen or so members here say that books are better than the movies because my imagination does better than any special effects, so is that not a type of ultraviolence? Should we stop using our imaginations?
The thing is people enjoy these types of fantasies and there is nothing wrong with that, until you want to do it for real. There are games of all kinds out there and whatever you like pretty much already exists, just look around and you'll find it. I have always laughed at the comments that Spector said as they are nothing new and unfortunately people will continue for centuries to say we have crossed the line.