Ben-DutkaThe news took some time to process. For someone who has been a die-hard Final Fantasy fan since the Super Nintendo days, something like that takes a while to sink in.
Thing is, we're all older now. We consider a lot of different factors before arriving at a conclusion.
We consider Square Enix's position in the flagging Japanese gaming market, as they – and most other Japanese developers – desperately attempt to cater to Western markets. We consider that nostalgia frequently plays a role and in fact, despite what we may think , old-school mechanics like turn-based combat really might lead to financial disaster. We consider the new crowd of gamers and what they want as opposed to what we of a different generation want.
But even after considering it from every possible angle, I'm still pissed. This just boggles the mind. Perhaps most infuriating is Kitase's comment about how action RPGs are a trend and "one you ignore you at your own peril." Goddamnit, the only reason it's a "trend" is because it's basically the only type of RPG that exists anymore! It's not like gamers have much of a choice . Sure, there are a few handheld and digital productions that utilize turn-based fighting but full-budget productions are few and far between. Atelier Totori: Adventurer of Arland is a definite rarity.
Fact: Gamers didn't start to abandon turn-based combat, game makers took it away.
And beyond that, why, why , why would a company completely ignore a large and vocal group of fans? How is that beneficial? Yes, we understand that you have to expand to survive; that you have to lure in new fans. But at the expense of those who would've followed you to the ends of the earth? Who bought just about anything with "Squaresoft" on the box in the original PlayStation generation? How can that possibly help? Maybe you just don't believe them when they say they'd love a classic turn-based Final Fantasy in a modern style. Maybe you think there aren't enough of them.
Okay. But I don't see a whole lot of supporters for your cause. I don't see an opposing group going, "no, action RPG is definitely the way to go for Final Fantasy ." Show me one fan who says that. And I also think it's a bad idea to underestimate the younger generation and think they all want some "twitchiness" in every game they play. Square Enix, how on God's green earth do you know what they want? Based on what we've seen in the past, you really have no idea. So what is this? Blind groping to gather in as many faceless gamers as possible to help your bottom line?
While you're flailing about in the dark, millions – millions – of fans are begging you to come to your senses. Open your ears, use your eyes, listen . The backlash is impossible to miss. All I can think of now is the time when Square Enix asked, sorta vaguely, if fans really want a Final Fantasy VII remake and their Twitter page exploded. And what did they learn from that? Apparently nothing. Look, I think FFXIII-2 will be a great game; FFXIII was a great game. They are not great iterations in the legendary Final Fantasy series and there's a reason for that.
I would just love to be a fly on the wall in a Square Enix executive or development meeting. Because at this point, I'm starting to think a well-trained monkey could've made better decisions.
Amen. Every word of this is true, I have no idea how they think the ideas they produce are good. The only reason Versus XIII get's away with being an Action RPG is because it isn't a MAIN installment. Next thing you know, Kingdom Hearts will be turn based and CoD will be an RTS… OK that one won't happen, but Square Enix just doesn't get it. I can't comprehend what happened during that merger that made Square go "hm…Let's change EVERYTHING!" Really, it makes NO sense.
It makes perfect sense. They want that Call of Duty money. Meaning Multiplat +20 million in sales, faster, arcade like gameplay and flashy flashy flashy sprinkles on bullsh*t.
I like your point that not a single solitary Final Fantasy fan actually wants these changes. It's true, we just don't.
The only thing I can think of is that critics started to call the turn based style archaic and twitchy games in general have exploded in popularity.
The problem here is that SE has put together a 2+2=5 mentality out of the "evidence" at hand. The dots just don't connect so long as the people who want those games don't want those changes. SE is so far from knowing the market their games are for they might as well be in another dimension from us fans.
There is no reason they can't cater to both. Having the "option" to go action mode would be my version of 2+2=4. Don't change the core, but make it attractive to everyone.
funny you say that, they even added the option in Dissidia 2
I would say that SE is run by people with the IQ of a mentally disabled potato. But I feel like that is to much of a insult… to the potato.
If ff13-2 sells aren't good then I think they will change. FF13 sells were actually good, so they most likely got their heads in the air/clouds. It was their fastest selling game in the series and 3rd best selling game only behind ff7 (number 1) and ff10 with both having some age on ff13.
i doubt that, if they can ignore a website crashing response to an obvious question, then it just shows how in touch they are. they'll probably just set a low bar and rejoice if sales go over it. hell, this is basically content cut from the original ff13 release so it wont cost them as much to make.
I don't get SE. No matter how much they change do they really think there gonna pull in the casual gamer. Even if they make it fast and dumb it will still have a fantasy setting (or dear god I hope so) and the casual gamer will still not take to it.
Next FF is set in a war torn middle eastern country. Main protagonist is a weathered, war-hardened, ex-Marine commander who lost his whole platoon to a IED. It will have 86 hours of ground-breaking FMV sequences that are interactive. The gameplay will consist of L1 scoping, R1 firing, R3 run mechanics, R2 grenade throwing, and a revolutionary addition for the final fantasy series X to jump. The levelling system will be streamlined and you will be awarded experience points based on kills and head shots. Your stats will be removed to make room for inventory management of your duffel bag.
Welcome to the future of Final Fantasy. Hope you enjoy the stay.
To above Poster:
That iteration of Final Fantasy is very scary but I must say the way you descirbed may laugh very very hard.
Like I've said numerous times, Square is dead to me. D-E-A-D. They dont care anymore guys and neither should you. They'll start caring when they have a couple more years of losing a sh*t ton of money.
Either we make a facebook page or website in a petition like manner and send it to these idiots everyday to wake them up, or we move on. Point, blank, period.
Im just as upset about this as all of you but as long as we keep complaining about it without some sort action, we just come off as crybaby's.
The COD twitchy gameplay is stupid popular because those games are all eye candy, easy to play and it has the my friends are all doing it social aspect to it. Square wants that money. Its a lot of friggin money. And their new leadership doesnt care about being an elite developer any longer, just a follower and a follower to those dollar's
Last edited by SoulController on 11/16/2011 10:35:35 PM
Man…imagine if Zelda suddenly went turn-based. People would be pretty mad at Nintendo, right? It just doesn't make very much sense to forsake what they're so well-known for. There hasn't been a turn-based Final Fantasy since FFX-2, though, so I'm not holding out too much hope. I mean…I don't care anymore.
I do still buy turn-based RPGs, but they're all on SNES and PS1. At this point, if you really want old-style games, just get an old game. It's cheaper than buying new games anyway. At the same time, it's a type of game that shouldn't stop being made.
The ATB system does have some serious problems (Too easy, lack of balance, useless spells, etc) but people LIKE it. It needs to stay!
Square has such potential still but they squander by ignoring their fans. Here is to hoping Atlus announces a new full on Shin Megami Tensei soon. A nice big budget turn based RPG fix would be great now. I do have Atelier Totori to play through, but umm, I have a feeling it's gonna be missing something epic, as much fun as I might have with the mechanics.
Last edited by ZenChichiri on 11/16/2011 10:56:07 PM
Pauses from thinking about SKYRIM!:
Final Fluff?, Final?, Final? something?
Goes back to RPG heaven SKYRIM!!
And this, I'm pretty sure, is the reasoning behind S-E possibly going ARPG for FF 😉
@Lawless: lol! Man, that was one elegant countering.
Skyrim FTW though.
Last edited by Beamboom on 11/17/2011 6:35:41 AM
Yes, it is exactly why.
I still say only one sentence, fire wada, who I believe the evil greedy mastermind behind SE's derail in recent years, and The problems are halfway solved; the other half will be solved by asking Sakaguchi, Nobuo, yasunori mitsuda to come back.
You can tell it's that M$ greed cause when it (FF13) was still a PS3 exclusive they at least had cities, then it goes to Xbox and then the cities are gone.
"Screw Sony and the fans who made us what we are, lets get that Xbox money!!"
– Square Enix
@main_event: Although, there's little doubt that things we kept out of 13 to accommodate DVD restrictions, there's very little evidence that the larger issues that plague that game (and apparently new games) was influenced by the decision to go multiplat in any meaningful way.
All of the elements that longtime fans want to see return (ie. turn-based, control of all party members, deeper, more tactical combat, etc) can be found on the xbox in the form of Lost Odyssey. So, it's not like any of those things were changed because of multiplat issues.
It was, instead, deliberate design choice by Square-Enix. And though, I find it likely that those design choices and the decision to go multiplat were both made in the hopes of getting more widespread sales,I also believe that the two were independent decisions.
Screw Square. They have lost me as a fan. They insult those of us who made them a success every time they open their mouths with this nonsense.
They have to have heard what was demand by fans cause it seems they are doing the complete opposite. Screw ups on the level they are on can only be intentional.
I suppose that it's rather fitting that you bring up Atelier Totori Ben. While current generation turn based games do exist (such as Atelier Rorona, Atelier Totori, Disgaea 3, and Disgaea 4, Hyperdimension Neptunia, and WKC 1 & 2), they have become much less common than they were in previous generations.
But if it's any consolation to you there are still developers out there who are intent on doing their own thing regardless of how many copies Call of Duty sells. For example when Gust was first established the most popular genres of game at the time were intense fighting games and large scale RPGs. They deliberately decided to go a different route.
Square-Enix decided to try and follow popular trends and they forgot who they were in the process. But there are others out there who have no problem with just being themselves, with Gust being one of the best examples.
Anyway, I should mention that Atelier Meruru has been greenlit for localization in the states. I suppose we can think of buying it and other games like it as our way of giving Square-Enix the finger.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 11/17/2011 1:36:14 AM
I'm enjoying Totori, it's not the kind of JRPG I crave but it is lots of fun so I'm interested in
Meruru
Square Enix owns the IP for FF. They can do what they want with it. They don't owe the fans anything. They have highly educated business men and accountants running the show and the brutal truth is that the money aint in turned based rpgs anymore.
We probably shouldn't care. We should let it go! Move on…
People are voting with their wallets. Mass Effect 2, Fallout 3, Dragons Age Origins, Skyrim, Dead Island. Can't see many turn based rpgs in amongst those.
Niche is fine but it doesn't pay the bills. Games aren't made on the smell of an oily rag any more…
What a load of crap.
Sure SE owns the IP for FF and they are within their rights to do whatever they want with it. INCLUDING ruin it. But that is totally beside the point.
SE does owe the fans considering that the fans played a crucial role in making them what they are today.
And if these business people and accountants are so well educated then why the hell were they stupid enough to release FFXIV in the state that it was in? All that education didn't do them all that much good. A well educated idiot is still an idiot. They might do well to take a page from Sony's playbook and adopt a largely hands off approach to game development, or in other words lay off and let the artists do their jobs.
And there is money in turn-based RPGs, just maybe not the kind of money SE wants. And that's a big maybe seeing as how that seems to be open to debate considering that FFXIII was technically turn-based (ATB but still turn-based) and still sold millions of copies.
The main reason you can't see many turn-based RPGs among those is because there currently aren't that many turn-based RPGs out there in general and most of the ones that are are niche titles. And millions of people also voted for FFXIII with their wallets.
Niche does pay the bills, just ask the developers of niche games. But this isn't about paying the bills. This isn't about needing, it's about wanting. This is about SE being greedy.
And we shouldn't care? Should let it go?
AS IF!
Last edited by Looking Glass on 11/17/2011 2:55:13 AM
Well I admire your enthusiasm!
Good luck to you in this battle. Final Fantasy must be in your blood!
@Gordo: You only discovered that *now*? lol
The guys around here not only has FF in their blood, it's in their heart, mind, soul, life AND death. They are nuts and I love this enthusiasm. The likes of you and me must just sit back and enjoy it for what it is. 🙂
Last edited by Beamboom on 11/17/2011 5:16:46 AM
Cheers. Yes, I also don't understand fully the fascination, but full dues to anyone that cares for a series like this!
Note to self: Final Fantasy is nearly a religion to many on this site! 😉
Jrpgs in general, and Uncharted. Those are the two holy cows you need to tread carefully around. Do that and you'll be fine. 😉
Last edited by Beamboom on 11/17/2011 5:56:27 AM
They didn't just make Final Fantasy. They used to make a TON of turn based RPG's. They used to be a game development behemoth… nay…. a bahamut!
Now they're just another developer in the mix… Except since all their changes from what they used to do… in a single year, their projected income dropped by 93%. <— THAT… is inSANE.
So no, Gordo…. I disagree…. they do NOT have intelligent businessmen. Their stock and their worth continues to plummet…. and in one of the few industries in the world that is thriving more and more each day, no less!!! It seems rather elementary, to me, that to once again make the money you used to make… you should probably run your business the way you used to run it.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 11/17/2011 6:57:48 AM
It's not so much Final Fantasy I'm loyal to as it is JRPGs in general. And like many other people I have been highly displeased with Square-Enix's more recent behavior.
And the fact that FF sales have hit a downward slope since the new gameplay mechanics and settings were introduced, doesnt tell you something?
@Akuma07
Sorry but are you talking (figuratively of course) to Gordo or someone else? I'm only asking because I can't quite tell.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 11/17/2011 7:01:55 PM
"Beamboom
@Gordo: You only discovered that *now*? lol
The guys around here not only has FF in their blood, it's in their heart, mind, soul, life AND death. They are nuts and I love this enthusiasm. The likes of you and me must just sit back and enjoy it for what it is. :)"
Right on the nail Beamyboom. Well said my friend.
Oh for God's sake!!!
Square Enix, you wanna know why CoD sells so well? I'll tell you, but there's nothing you can do to fit these into Final Fantasy:
1. It's a First Person Shooter!!! One of the easiest types of games to pick up and play next to 2D platformers. Great RPG's require time and strategy which is EXACTLY what you are straying away from!!
2. CoD has online multiplayer. Very popular with social gaming and casual players looking for a quick half hour round with some buddies.
3. CoD has very basic levelling elements, limited to guns and perks on the battlefield. DO NOT lower your RPG and levelling elements to the same standard as a First Person Shooter!!!
4. Final Fantasy has a big fanbase consisting of older players, well into the millions!!! There is no doubt that the influence of these fans will affect new fans, perhaps not at the same rate as CoD over the last 3 years, but FF is a long-term franchise, not a short yearly sprint like CoD!! Evolve your older games into something new and incredible!!! Take your PS1 RPG mechanics and bring them into the PS3 generation, don't completely abandon it!!!
If the next words out of Wada and Co's mouths aren't "We are sorry" or "We're bringing back the turn-based Final Fantasy you love so much" OR "The Final Fantasy VII or VIII remake is well underway and we're aiming for an early 2013 release", I'm thinking of giving up on the Final Fantasy franchise altogether!!!
Last edited by Dancemachine55 on 11/17/2011 2:59:06 AM
At this point, I don't care what SE does. People have been whining about this stuff for years, and it's not going to change anything. The only thing that works is voting with your wallet. We all bought FF13 expecting something which it was not. The sales data told SE that it was a success and we liked it. The only thing that will change their course is lack of sales. I'm not buying FF13-2, period. They wasted my time in the first game; I won't let them waste it again. There are far better options available from companies that actually give a damn about what their fans think.
At this point, I can't see myself buying any future Final Fantasy product. They have tarnished their brand so severely, and are so flagrantly ignoring everything their fans have to say, that I simply don't want to have anything further to do with them.
It's the same reason I can't see myself ever buying a Wii U. Nintendo is so out of touch with their fans, ignoring everything we say, acting like every half-assed idea their marketing department thinks up is a new wondrous miracle which we should all praise them for, and always taking the lazy easy cash path by abusing the hell out of their name-brand franchises to the detriment of everything else. Those are not people with which I want to do business.
There is enough stress in every day living. I don't want to tie my hopes up in companies who obviously don't care about their customers. I'll give my money to people who do.
Agreed, not getting XIII-2 this time.
I just hope many people can follow suit to send SE a clear message that they are heading in the wrong direction.
Here's hoping these people have strong will power, a Final Fantasy release does funny things to old fans.
After what SE did to the Front Mission series I wouldn't be suprised to see a Final Fantasy rockband style game from them.
They don't understand that the previous generations (PS2 & PS1) development was what many of us liked. They got to work with a PS3 and just assumed that since this thing can do so much more that they should focus their rather than with what they knew how to do. Many companies are doing this, forgetting how they use to make games and what made those fun. That is why I am a loyal Yakuza fan as they have mixed both newer tech with the older development style and made it work.
ive given up on wanting $E to stop trying to change FF.
playing XIII-2 at the expo last month totally killed my interest in the series.
$E, just get it over and done with so you can move on to KH3!
and god f*cking help you if you screw that up too!
KH3 will be a dark Skyrim style ARPG.
And here, we all thought Wada was the problem. Sure, he may be the biggest of the bigwigs, giving the ultimate stamp of approval, but he isn't really in a creative role, unless I miss my mark completely. It is the producers and directors of the games that are digging these graves. They think that they can please their fans by changing everything? When has that ever worked?
I mean, The Godfather didn't suddenly become an OTT action film. The Mummy didn't turn into some brilliantly conceived philosophical argument. The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy never become a soberingly serious series and Metal Gear Solid never cheapened itself to appeal to a twitchy audience, yet they all remained successes because they retained what made them so great and so memorable from the outset.
All I can say is that S-E may get more fans by altering FFXV more in the direction of Demon's Souls, or Dragon Age or Skyrim, but gaming will lose an icon in the process. The fans will know the truth, and Final Fantasy will die for them.
What worries me most about the whole affair is the possible ramifications of XIII-2 being placed against Versus in a sales comparison. People have been burnt by XIII, making them less likely to pick up its direct sequel, but it is far more akin to a turn-based game than Versus will. But Versus, from what I gather, is the more hotly anticipated game, and I feel it will sell better, thus vindicating the ideas put forth by Kitase, at least from a boardroom perspective.
Damn… Maybe we should just forgo the pair of them and everyone buy six copies of FFX HD…
Duh… This fire burns. I mention The Godfather as a film series simply because I haven't yet read the novels. I'll get to it.
There *is* a way of getting the edit button back, if you should need it. Just sayin' 😉
Last edited by Beamboom on 11/17/2011 5:58:20 AM
I think im going to skip FFXIII-2. Unless ben's review of it says something along the lines of 'for those who wished they could get back the hours they wasted on FFXIII, get this game, you'll love it' i think i'll be good without it
……where's FF Versus XIII?
As much as I hate to say it, SE really is dead to me….which is sad to say because it used to be EASILY my number one favourite franchise ever.
Which is saying a lot considering I play almost ever genre of games, except for FPS.
While I wasn't completely disappointed with FF XIII, I definitely won't be picking up the sequel.
First time since I first started playing FF that I wasn't crazy over another installment.
Nothing much else I can say except for complete and utter regret at the road that SE has chosen.
But of course, like the sucker I am, I still have hope for FF Versus XIII and hopefully the production of KH3… 🙁
I agree with Ninja Waffles… I grew up playing old school final fantasy games, the first and most favorite being 7. I played through 7 and still do to this day. I played through 8 but never enjoyed it as much as 7. I played through 9 and enjoyed it thoroughly. Since X-2 I have given up.
I understand that there may be more money by creating games like XIII but imagine the amount of money they can make by releasing a new 7 for ps3 and PC. I understand the magnitude of a project like this believe me I am a developer myself, but with the amount of money SE has and man power, they can do it no worries.
SE need to listen to their fans. I personally would go out and buy a ps3 just for a remade 7. The money they are making now is good, but for people like myself who don't bother with any other releases, if a remake where to happen, they would make mountains more.
Just saiyan…
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone on that sucker list… I still have hope on the great devs that SE has, even though I lost all of It on the people running the company (I hate you Wada…)