Ben-DutkaIf there's one thing that has always been true about the PlayStation brand, it's this- It's not meant for the casual gamer. Casuals are welcome, of course, but PlayStation has always been a haven for the hardcore.
Xbox is the casual gamer's platform of choice. We all know this. And as the vast majority of gamers these days can be identified as "casual," maybe it's no surprise that Sony wants a piece of that ever-growing pie.
I like what I've heard concerning the PS4. I completely understand Sony's approach. Furthermore, I have no doubt that we'll get plenty of games that are specifically designed for the hardcore gamers out there. However, given the fact that the new console emphasizes accessibility and social medial elements, one has to wonder if Sony is making a definite transition. Then we have to wonder if we'll see any of those niche titles PlayStation has been so well known for over the years; i.e., JRPGs, for instance, which are pretty much dying, anyway.
On top of which, we have to consider the following- Maybe the market can no longer support a device that purely targets the hardcore. Maybe the only way to survive these days is to appease the masses, which game makers never had to do before. Maybe Sony's new direction wasn't about choice…maybe it was a necessity. I suppose we could be optimistic and say the PS4 will satisfy both the hardcore and casual crowds equally, but I have a feeling that may not be the case…
Ben, re-read your editorial, I think you have the emphasis wrong in this sentence; "Maybe the only way to survive these days is to appease the masses"
I don't think there's any maybe here, and I don't think this system will appeal to the older generations of hardcore gamers.
Sony, well SCEA, certainly has behaved in a way that supports this statement "Then we have to wonder if we'll see any of those niche titles PlayStation has been so well known for over the years; i.e., JRPGs, for instance, which are pretty much dying, anyway."
I don't know that the genre is dying in it's homeland. As NISA has proven today, the JRPG continues to exist in the land of the rising sun. It's just that outside that home nation, there seems precious little in the way of support for it. As I said in a comment to another article this week, perhaps it's time to give the WiiU a look? Or perhaps the Vita will take over for the PSP and become the JRPG's new home?
What I do know and feel is that this PS4 is designed for western gamers and western developers with the heavy emphasis on social BS and a system architecture that caters heavily to Western developers. It seems that Sony has decided to look west and ignore what made it great.
I don't know what the future holds exactly, but without a huge drop of titles in genre that I am attracted by, there is zero reason for me to buy a PS4 at launch or even a year from launch.
Come on Highlander, lighten up. All this rage against SCEWW is not going to do you any good and it certainly isn't going to change the PS4's architecture. One can only hope since this gen isn't going to last as long as last gen did, Sony will go back to the drawing board. Like I said before. As of right now, Sony isn't in the business of investing millions of dollars on new "groundbreaking" technology. What they want to do now is just catch up. Rake in as much cash as they can.
I don't expect it to change a thing. Are you saying that if something is a forgone conclusion that means no one should criticize it? That's pretty much what you're telling me. If I follow your advice I go silent and my silence conveys what exactly? Tacit approval?
Why should I not criticize what I think needs to be criticized? I've said before that I will always support Sony, and I likely will, however that support is not blind. When I feel they deserve a critical word I let rip, as should everyone.
There is a difference between criticizing it and this thing you're doing. Highlander, you're being a bit too harsh on them. Nowhere did I tell you to shut up (which is the way you seem to take it), and you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. But come on man. You're taking it too far.
Last edited by Cesar_ser_4 on 2/22/2013 11:41:52 PM
Man i remember when you were a happy guy. At least from what i could tell by comments. Now you seem all well… Angry. If you don't like the ps4 don't buy it. I get where your coming from but Sony has to appease the NA's just as much as their homeland. Face it. People here love Facebook games. What better way to make the 17 million users of facebook come over to a console?
Its a smart tactic. I remain confident that just because they are trying something new that their not going insane either. Maybe you should try and open your mind a little bit, just a bit and think how things could get 'better' Because theres good in bad. You just have to find it. No offense Highlander. But i miss your older comments. Not this teenage angst-ish comments.
knightzane, You'll find one day that expressing how you feel is not teenage angst, it's "life's too short so why sit on my hands?"
Eh, let him alone, he's our tech guy so we shouldn't ask him to only be positive in the tech realm.
How is the architecture catering more to the western developers than the Japanese ones?
This argument is really puzzling me.
And Highlander, "life's too short so why sit on my hands?"…
Complaining and expressing yourself is hardly something indicating you're not sitting on your hands. Talk is cheap. Acting is what you mean. But most people who complain don't act.
As for Ben's article, I think he's jumping to a strange and obviously hasty conclusion. The reveal showcased almost exclusively hardcore material.
Yeah, they improved the social aspects and made sure the console would be a simple one to use. How is that making it more casual? Being better connected with your hardcore gaming friends makes it casual? -__-
Sony also specifically said that they worked hard to make sure that the time between the moment you turn the system on and the moment you play is diminished as much as possible. Making sure you do the hardcore gaming you crave for as quickly and hassle free as possible.
So how is improving the interface and streamlining the UI an indication that it's to cater to the casual market?
Must things be overly archaic to be hardcore? That's ridiculous.
Ease of use isn't what makes a console casual. It's the content that it has. And the content that was revealed doesn't indicate anything casual. Deep Down, Drive Club, Killzone 4, Diablo III, The Witness (if you've played Braid, you know that John Blow isn't about casuals), Bungie's Destiny (Bungie don't make casual games), Ubi's Watch Dogs, inFamous: Second Son…
I don't see anything casual there. Not even a glimpse.
Last edited by Hynad on 2/23/2013 7:54:06 AM
The Witcher 3 has also been confirmed by CD Projekt for the PS4… I don't buy the idea to just palm off the system as catering to "casuals" either.
Gotta agree with Hynad here. I don't see the PS4 as being any kind of "casual" gaming machine. It has a new streamlined interface, and gives gamers the option of working with social media components, but it's no more a casual machine than the PS3 was. Hell, you don't drop 8 gigs of DDR5 memory, a high performance dedicated GPU, and a custom AMD processor into a casual machine–the specs alone put it up there with some of the better PC gaming rigs I've built.
In short, new UIs and media outlets do not a casual system make. The thing has "mass appeal" written all over it.
Well it doesn't help you any that you decided to avoid the best JRPG to come out this generation 😉
As for him being the Tech expert, I personally put my faith in Temjin in that realm. I've had many great conversations about tech with him and he explains everything well enough without taking an elitist stance due to his knowledge.
On the complete other end of the spectrum Highlander can moan and whine all he wants. I did it with ME3 and I will still do it if anyone challenges why I feel that way towards that series, so on some level I can relate. Heck the whining actually got something accomplished there…however I was not one of the people who went overboard saying they were going to kill casey hudson or anything like that.
I just still don't understand what exactly he is upset about with the console. Yes it has some of the parts that a mid range PC would have in them, BUT it is a console, and dedicated to gaming. I know mid range laptops would not be able to get games running looking like KZ:Shadowfall does, because aside from my gaming PC I have a mid range laptop and it can't produce those quality graphics.
Plus it has a ton of dedicated super fast memory, something PCs from my understanding aren't really harnessing yet, plus a low resource operating system.
Here is an actual question for highlander. What would YOU have made the PS4 into? What parts would you have used, and what price range would you charge people? I want to know what you think you could have done better. When I complain I almost always have a part where I express what I would have done differently, which I did numerous times with ME2 and ME3.
Last edited by xenris on 2/23/2013 9:38:44 AM
Uh…if "the thing has mass appeal written all over it," that would be the epitome of a casual gamer's machine in my eyes.
And who said anything about Western and Japanese, Hynad? Why do you think all Western gamers are casual and all Japanese are hardcore?
Hum… Ben? Did you read the actual discussion here? O_o
Hynad: Yes, I see. Highlander tends to focus on that.
Sure Highlander's stance won't help the PS4 but perhaps it will for PS5, because you know that once PS4 launches the Sony people will start thinking about PS5. Especially if the PS4 ends up being a shorter hardware cycle.
@Ben, perhaps you misunderstand me. Having "mass appeal" does not mean "limited to casual market". The PS4 is clearly designed to be a machine for everyone, whether you're a hardcore gamer who's all about the $60 experience, or an occasional pick-up-and-play type who's more interested in the multimedia and social aspects of the unit. It's a console designed with both us AND our mothers in mind.
So, in this context, "mass appeal" does not mean "casual"–it means being so robust as to be desirable to a broader audience while retaining its core gamer roots.
Highlander. Thanks for sticking to your guns!
I come here for educated and informed debate and this wouldn't happen if every one had the same opinion.
I focus on that Ben, because the majority of western developers make *nothing* that interests me.
Honeslty, don't expect the PS5 to be different in terms of scale from the PS4.
Sony gambled with the cell processor and bluray, they packed a lot into the original 60gb PS3, and they were LOSING money on every console they sold for a long time. They had to do it, to make sure they had an edge on the Xbox 360. It paid off in the long run, but I doubt Sony want to spend the next 3 years doing the same thing.
I have said it SO many times, a lot of people have, even Ben, but people need to stop and listen to what the developers are saying.
@Highlander, We get your point, the PS4 is a piece of crap low-end rubbish PC with the Sony label and aimed at Western devs. The funny part of your arguement, is that you have never once said anything about the developers! Every developer who has spoken about the PS4, has spoken about how awesome it is and how it is a huge improvement on the PS3. Also, like Xenris said, what would YOU have put in it? and how much would you charge people for it?
To the people who are worried about the PS4 not being much of a graphical improvement to the PS3, let me just say one final time, the developers who were responsible for the most graphically incredible games in the current generation have all expressed their total excitement and happiness towards the PS4. Isn't that enough? I mean, the co-founder of Guerilla games went on national TV and said that the PS4 was an incredible machine and was a huge improvement on the PS3, he even called it a "supercharged" machine.
Last edited by Akuma_ on 2/24/2013 8:06:26 PM
The PS4 is made for the 'hardcore' crowd but with some bells and whistles that might attract the casual crowd too. During the current gen we've seen our consoles turning into multi-media boxes rather than straight up dedicated 'games' consoles. The vibe I got about the PS4 the other night was that it was all about the games. Nothing casual about what we seen in that department and although there was a lot of talk about social networks, I think we're all kinda evolved to that now in our every day lives away from gaming, so it's a natural evolution that it would be integrated into the next gen. That's not catering to the casual crowd exclusively, that's catering to everyone since we're practically all connected any way.
This – you don't put 8GB of GDDR5 into a casual gaming box, that'd be insane – but you do make sure the box will work for casuals and the hardcore. Plus, the young 'uns really dig the interconnected stuff – even the hardcore young 'uns.
Precisely.
You hit it right on Axe99…
What more, making sure the console has these social aspects and ties to existing widespread social networks like facebook makes it so we, hardcore gamers, don't need to get away from our gaming as much as if they weren't included.
You can do it all from your console, and most of it can be done while you're still playing your games!!
Last edited by Hynad on 2/23/2013 9:40:55 AM
Every system is "all about games." When a new system comes out and the only new features on display have nothing to do with better GAMES but with the "user experience," then of course the console is automatically more casual.
"When a new system comes out and the only new features on display have nothing to do with better GAMES but with the 'user experience,' then of course the console is automatically more casual."
It sounds like you're equating "more casual" with "less technical".
@ Ben – 8GB of GDDR5 is a new feature, and it's all about high-performance for gaming. Video uploading is also a feature that's big with the hardcore competitive communities on relevant games. Sure, they made a big song and dance about the social features, but they also spent a good amount of time showing us games that looked plenty 'core' (KZ, Deep Down, Watch Dogs). If you look at how long, in minutes, the conference focussed on stuff, there was plenty of time either talking tech specs (a decidedly un-casual thing to do) or showing core games (again, non-casual).
To survive and to be relevant you have to bring everyone in in a big tent philosophy, but it's not as if all Sony's developers and reliable multiplat devs are going to start making simple casual games all of the sudden. The new architecture won't stop any of the JRPGs or other Playstation goodies to stop flowing our way. The social stuff just makes sense, it's a way to proliferate media and ensure success. There's nothing to gain with an exclusionary mindset.
Stop making so much sense, dammit. This is the internet, here!
This point, I think, undermines Ben's starting premise. PlayStation has *never* just catered to the hardcore audience. They're the systems that brought gaming to the mainstream.
Neither is the 360 the system for "casuals", unless you define "casuals" as people who play COD every day, which is frankly a misuse of the term. And that characterisation hardly reflects the totality of the 360-using population.
The Wii was the system for casual gaming, if any console was. In reality, only the iDevices are really built for "casuals".
Last edited by Fane1024 on 2/24/2013 7:56:42 AM
social meaning sharing video and have ur own profile page with a gaming network not casual games for casual gamers.
GAMES ARE ALL ABOUT HARDCORE!
Dont bring up articles like this pls i beg you
Last edited by Kiryu on 2/22/2013 11:22:41 PM
Sony 's PS4 is still console with power, it's the developers decision to make their games cater to casual or hardcore. Those "social" stuff is just an add-on to go with the flow in what people of today are into now, (Facebook, Youtube, Video sharing, etc.) and if the PS4 can do it, why not? It's just a little disappointing that Sony didn't go for pioneering new technology, which Sony is known for, this time. But if this'd safety move is there only chance to stop the bleeding, then it still good for me. And the fact that those games previewed is fantastic nonetheless, so it still looks like it's going to be an amazing PS4 Generation.
As for the JRPG's, it's not dying. Three NIS games are announced. And the games like Tales Of Xillia, New Atelier. And I think Project X-Zone is coming to PS3. Bravely Default and Fire Emblem if you include 3DS. Tri-Ace, Level-5 and of course Square-Enix (FFXIII is still an amazing JRPG, and that's a fact, what? because it doesn't compares to other FF, suddenly it's not JRPG anymore).
Seems more like they're adding a couple of things to try to attract casual gamers.
On another note, "Xbox is the casual gamer's platform of choice." What a strange thing to say. If that were true, the PS3 would've never caught up in sales. Most casual gamers I know go for a Wii or just stick to their phones.
Just looking at the 2 confirmed launch titles (Killzone, and Watch Dogs) I would say that no it is not going casual. If the launch games were Canival Party 16 and Petz Horse's addition than yeah I would see it as a casual cash in.
The development firm I am employed with has a saying that fits this particular situation quite well.
"Running a company is all about adapting to factors out of our control."
Now while this generally applies to cost of materials and subcontractor prices, it's an excellent philosophy for any business.
Sony has adapted to the current global financial situation by using a PC type system, which will only help those who build our entertainment software. Not everybody is Naughty Dog afterall. Plus, they have as made their new system attractive to people who enjoy a more social lifestyle which as all of us know, will only help expand the Playstation brand.
For gamers like us, we should all find peace in the fact that the PS4 is the most capable system to bear the name "Playstation". This tells me that Gran Turismo (for example) will only better. Insert your game in "for example" parenthesis if it helps drive my point home.
Log Live Play…
Last edited by maxpontiac on 2/23/2013 12:40:42 AM
I don't really understand the basis of this article, although I appreciate the scepticism implied. One should always ask questions, try to look at things from different angles. We need that. These are the kind of articles I want to see on a mature Sony fan site.
But I don't see how the presentation of this machine had an emphasis on "accessibility and social medial elements". An *emphasis*? I does of course depend on the eye of the beholder, but what I saw was a machine that had a focus on *gaming*.
I assume we here talk about the possibility to record, edit and share video clips, and the possibility to stream your gaming session to others. But I see those features as just an extension of gaming. It's not like there is a Facebook app with Facebook chat and picture gallery browse functions, and virtual pets for your living room. Now *that* would be a machine with a casual appeal and "social media focus".
On the PC gamers have been recording and editing gameplay videos ever since the computers were able to do so. This is historically *not* a casual gamer activity.
And the professional tournaments with live broadcast of gaming sessions, and the live streams of gaming sessions on the internet now with the best players having a host of viewers, if that's not rooted in hardcore gaming then nothing is. So if anything, the new Playstation picks from *that* sphere – the hardcore gamers sphere – more than the casual sphere.
You know, the more I think about what we now know about the PS4 the more excited I get. Sony has blown me away with their clear sights. I'd call this a hardcore gaming console of this generation. That's a more suitable label to put on it.
Last edited by Beamboom on 2/23/2013 1:32:00 AM
Agreeeeeed.
Yeah, to me, we are having too much of these discussions. I don't know how much more there is to talk about. The presentation by Sony is pretty much the rumors that had been accumulated, only better, and we've only been worried and talking about it every week. Rumors suggested social features, but for whatever reason, it's taken as social "focus."
I mean what did Sony need to do to convince everyone that this whole social thing isn't a move to abandon the hardcore? Are we not liking that Sony is opening their welcoming arms to the casual gamers? I personally saw the greatest range of gaming that I possibly could see. We had showings of shooters, platformer, future rpg, racing, family, action/adventure, and even puzzle.
For a show that was suppose to be about the reveal of the PS4 console, I thought it was excellent and well balanced. It's not like they showed us 90% move games. In fact, only one. I don't need them to show me 50 more hardcore games to convince myself because I know Sony still has their first-party developers. I also still know that third-party developers like Rockstar, Ubisoft, Activision will continue to produce games for the hardcore.
And really, it's already been pretty much confirmed that we won't be forced online to play our games. Don't like social features? Then just turn it off. None of it is forced. Now that that's out of the way, and as long as there's great games, which I think would be silly to not think they're coming, why worry so much?
How on earth is live streaming your play session a casual feature? The entire subculture of streaming which that is very popular is just another world to me…
Beamboom, you're not getting it.
Look at basically every single new feature in the PS4. EVERY one is either about playing with other people or ushering other people into the experience somehow. Every…single…one.
It doesn't boast the huge hardware leap Sony has always been known for, which is what some people are complaining about. Hence, that sounds like LESS a focus on the games themselves and MORE a focus on the ACCESSORIES of games; i.e., gimmicks, multiplayer, and social media things.
That's my point. Again, I don't have a problem with the PS4, as you know. But that entire system is just screaming "casual" from start to finish due to the NEW features it's bringing.
Wait… Ben, what is your definition of casual gaming?
You mentioned multi-player… That has me a little worried about what you call casual.
Well, if at first we are to talk about who's "not getting it" (although I dislike saying that to others), I'm afraid that's you Ben.
I think you have to realize that you have become a bit outdated. You are an adult now – a new generation hardcore gamers has taken over.
When you talk about "hardcore" I believe the word you really are looking for is "old-school".
To play with or against others is not in itself "casual". It's just not "oldschool", it's not how hardcore gaming used to be.
Fact is that much of the most hardcore gaming that takes place today, takes place in multiplayer games. Like it or not – that's how it is.
If you are to cater to the hardcore gamers of today, you must – MUST – deliver a good multiplayer framework. It is, today, a requirement from the current generation *hardcore* gamers. They want to see innovation in those areas. You don't, but that's cause you are an old-school gamer.
And there's definitely nothing casual about bragging about your gaming achievements. That's hardcore gamer behaviour right there. Casual gamers don't give a sh*t.
It's the hardcore gamers who care about platinum trophies, strategies, item stats and how to best take down this or that boss – and love to brag about it.
YouTube, Facebook & co is the "school yard of today". It's hardcore gamers who want to post a video on Youtube showing off how they were the first in the world to do a quadruple barrel roll over a pass in the next Burnout Paradise.
Again, causal gamers don't give a sh*t.
This stuff here are features aimed at the current generation hardcore gamers, Ben. It's those who Sony cater for with the PS4 – not the OLDSCHOOL gamers.
Us oldtimers must just realize we are not at the front any more. 🙂
Last edited by Beamboom on 2/23/2013 11:42:09 AM
Hynad, you shouldn't treat generalized statements as if they were specific examples.
Dota 2 is played with other people and is multiplayer. Yet it is one of the most hardcore games I have ever played in my life.
Also the share feature seems hardcore to me not casual. Being able to record stuff in real time and pop it online on your youtube channel would be awesome but casual gamers probably wont even touch the feature, or they might not even know it exists.
I think the social features are a byproduct of the current generation of gamers. Facebook, is huge, steam is huge, and I think sony just added features that would cater to people who were into that sort of thing. But those features don't make the console seem casual oriented to me. Especially considering there was a graphical leap even if some people wanted it to be a bigger one.
If they wanted to make a real casual console they would have released a console with the power of the Wii for 50$ and made the games 99c.
I think they have a strong launch title list, and those titles seem anything but casual to me. Maybe there are some casual games in there but still, I wouldn't call the system casual just because it offers social features.
Sony was in a position to literally put everything and the kitchen sink into this console and I think they did. They didn't want to leave anything out, that is why it has the touchpad on the controller, the six axis, the rumble, move support, that camera thing, the dedicated internet drive thing(sorry dont remember the name) and pretty much everything that is "current"
But of course no one can know if it is catering to casuals until we start seeing what kind of games start rolling out. If they are mostly 99-20 dollar digital social games then I think we have a problem. Until then I think they just built a system with EVERYONE in mind, hardcore and casual.
Really good points.
And I think it would help to know what Ben considers casual. If it has social aspects to the game, does that make it casual? Demon Souls has social aspect to it. White Knight Chronicles?
I thought Ben loved Journey. It doesn't get more casual and accessible than that game. And it has multiplayer too.
I'm aware that everything has changed, Beamboom. I'm not entirely sure why you think I don't already know everything you said in that post.
But my point is very simple and very logical. Let's try it this way-
In the "old-school" days, as you put it, essentially anyone who gamed was hardcore. There was no such thing as the dude who played a quick game of whatever after work, primarily because most anyone who was old enough to work didn't play video games. We were all hardcore because it was a primary hobby for all of us.
Now, the mainstream and casual gamers rule the market. 25 years ago, it wouldn't have mattered if there was a Facebook or YouTube. Gaming wasn't mainstream; it was only niche, and hence, would have absolutely no reason to embrace mainstream trends like social media. It's the emergence of a MAINSTREAM audience that dictated the vast majority of new features we're seeing in the PS4. I'm sorry, you can spin it however you see fit, but that much is a fact.
I never said it meant we'd get lesser experiences, nor did I say hardcore gamers wouldn't want the machine (I want it, for instance). I merely said this new console was inspired far more by the mainstream, the masses, and the casual gamers more than by the niche hardcore group. That's just truth. And it's the right thing to do, as that niche group now constitutes only a tiny percentage of the overall gaming population whereas some decades ago, it was the ENTIRE population.
Clearly, Ben. Yes.
I dont know. Theres a lot of things pointing to the direction that the PS4 caters to the casual. But I consider my self at least a little hard core (if theres such a thing) and im all sorts of excited for the PS4. Theres so much more about this console than I imagined. The games just seem to be awesome, and despite what some say, the professionals in the industry seem to be all about this machine, and that excites me.
Some of the games like DriveClub appear to be very social and that would – to me – lean more towards a casual crowd in a way like a facebook or phone app game would. But the hardcore gamer in me is super excited about how deep the experience appears to me. Then of course KZ, well there didn't appear to be anything casual about that. MM's presentation seemed accessible, in fact that was a focal point of their demo. But then I realized I had a huge grin on my face the entire time I was watching not only because it was awesome, but because just like LBP there is so much potential in a very deep way.
You ask me, Sony found a balance we never could have hoped for. Kudos to them, because Im super excited amd everybody should be.
Last edited by bigrailer19 on 2/23/2013 1:52:32 AM
Jack Tretton went on record saying that PS4 games will range in price from $0.99 – $60.00. This means they will be selling pint size version games many of which will just be ported over from the mobile market, but some of them will take up the recourses of Sony. It is safe to assume, that there will be less hardcore games released this generation then any other. More emphasis will be placed on the casual market, period!
I don't think that is safe to assume at all.
What's wrong with casual games now and then? Is it so that if you call yourself a "hardcore gamer" you are disallowed to be enjoyed by games like World Of Goo? What kind of snobbish attitude is that?
There's *plenty* of great games out there, across all genres and complexity. A good game is a good game, and giving the indie scene access to this platform is just great. An indie developer today is one of the big guys tomorrow.
Last edited by Beamboom on 2/23/2013 2:06:51 AM
Hynad: It absolutely is. You may notice that ONLY hardcore gamers typically complain about the length of campaigns, and that's because the majority of casuals tend to only care about the multiplayer and social elements of a game these days.
Again, I'm not making sweeping generalizations. I know there are exceptions. I'm only talking about the majority percentage.