Ben-DutkaMany hardcore role-playing fans often bemoan the loss of old-school RPGs, especially those that featured "archaic" mechanics. But over the years, I've noticed this particular genre is especially susceptible to the rose-colored tinge of nostalgia, while action/adventure games, on the other hand…
I suppose it depends on the game, but I'm going to use a personal example- this past week, I went and downloaded Fighting Force from the PlayStation Store. It was a game I really liked back in the day; I went through it at least a dozen times, just for the fun of it. You could rip through it in less than an hour, I think, and I enjoyed beating the snot out of everyone in this 3D version of Streets of Rage . I couldn't wait to play again. And because I often go back and play various PS1 games, I didn't expect to be shocked…but oh, dear Lord…
Even knowing I would have to re-program my brain and make certain allowances, I found it almost unplayable. We aren't just spoiled; we've been playing what amounts to entirely different forms of interactive entertainment. And as I'm sitting there, wondering if I should make a sandwich in the time it takes my character to punch, and trying to remember how I dealt with a camera that would routinely make half the foes invisible, I thought- "but why do I not have any trouble with Final Fantasy VII , Final Fantasy Tactics , or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night ?" Ah, the answer was quick and obvious- the latter three games involved a lot more than gameplay, which is all something like Fighting Force subsisted on.
Storylines, characters, atmospheres, and mechanics that don't seem to age keep games entertaining for the fans. Turn-based never seems to get old for me, because it was never an issue of graphics or camera or control; it was mostly about thinking . Experiencing FFVII is more about the memorable characters and the story. SotN is beautiful side-scrolling that can't get much better. But when it comes to action games, where gameplay is basically all that matters (especially in the old days), there's just no comparison. I know it's blasphemy to say but I really can't play the original Metal Gear Solid anymore. And I can't see any reason to play Gran Turismo 2 ever again.
But RPGs like the ones I mentioned and Shadow Hearts and Legaia and what have you; games that put story, character, and unique mechanics that emphasize thought more than technical superiority in the limelight…they are the recipient of more nostalgia. It makes far more sense. I deleted Fighting Force ; I really can't play it. But I'll even play FFVI or Chrono Trigger on the SNES and I don't believe it's all due to personal preference. I repeat: I loved Fighting Force . No, it's just because RPGs have always – and should always – continue to give us a multitude of reasons to play besides mechanical and technical foundations.
P.S. One game that seems resistant to this theory is Twisted Metal 2. I can still play it and love it.
Actually i got into RPG's with the Ryu Ga Gotoku (Yakuza) Series on the PS2.
It's the best RPG ever created!
That's…not really an RPG.
That's what I was gonna say, but Kiryu will find any way to mention Yakuza in his posts so I just shrugged and let it go.
lol, I did the exact same thing World.
Glad someone's got passion for the Yakuza series though! Kudos to you!
But yeah… not an RPG.
All the above comments made me laugh. You have to buy that kind of comedy.
All thumbed up!
The message I got reading from this article was that there's a bigger picture to any complaint (or should I say, bemoaning), no matter how well-intentioned it may be.
That may not be true in every circumstance, but there is some truth to it 🙂
Thanks for teaching that to me Ben ^.^!
very well said, excellent posting!
fully agree, in rpg, or rather say, JRPG, i look for story, beautiful scenes of nature, music, tactic game play, and feeling of fantasy, other worldly, or heavenly or fancy, those are the ones i look for and they certainly do not age.
That's tragic. I wonder if the time will come when one day we look back at the games of this generation and ask how we ever managed to play and enjoy them. Right now, I'm thinking that's an impossibility, but even playing through early gen games like Dead Space and Bioshock, it comes to light how unrefined they feel in comparison, not only to their respective sequels, but other games on the market as well. I suppose the passing of time has a stronger effect than can be guessed at over the course of a year, or even five years.
I can only speak from my personal, limited experience, but I actually really enjoyed playing the old Sonic games when I picked up the Mega Drive Collection, as well as other games like Comix Zone. They have no real story or characterisation, but they're fun. Perhaps that is what makes them timeless. It's the same with Breakout, Tetris, Pac-Man and Space Invaders. They may all be archaic, but it is those old-fashioned elements that allow me to keep going back to them. The gameplay mechanics have certainly aged, and now seem remarkably simple, but they're good games.
Games that require strategy, over rapid button mashing are almost guaranteed to age better, simply because it doesn't rely entirely on mechanics that are constantly being improved and refined.
I think… that I disagree somewhat with you Ben. A game can be a great game, in spite of age regardless of genre. Perhaps simplicity is a factor in this. As you say, stories and characterisation is likely a strong factor, but that can't be the only thing. Why else would people be clamouring for Sonic 4? Why is Back to the Future (the current game) regarded so well, in spite of a set-up more reminiscent of games from the early nineties. Perhaps there has been improvement in these genres, but I don't really recognise it.
All I know is that my first RPG was a game called Castle of the Winds. It was only a short game, and part of a compilation disc that I got years and years and years ago. I must have played, and beaten, the game well over fifty times. It was an awesome game. I downloaded a freeware copy of it about a year ago and… Oh my tragedy. I could barely play it. It just felt awful. Whether that's a personal problem, and some enormous rose-tinted glasses, I don't know. That's it for my rambling.
Peace.
Well, I think it has more to do with certain periods in the industry.
I can still play Sonic, too, and any 2D Mario, for that matter. I'll play old NHL and Madden games on my SNES, and same goes for old Contras and stuff like that.
But during a time when we were breaking new ground – 3D, to be specific – things were very different. It was almost like starting over in a way. See, it's why I can always love SotN; you just can't do side-scrolling any better. In the case of Fighting Force, on the other hand, you can do that a LOT better, as we've seen.
Perhaps I should've been more specific about this in the article, but I'm trying to keep the length of editorials down. 🙂
Ah right. I completely missed the PS1/PS2 era, so I was just working with what I had. Thanks for the clarification there. I see what you mean, because Sonic Adventure is really… not good by today's standards, and it is a 3D game. And that's pretty much where that ends for me.
Peace.
I'm not sure, I've never enjoyed games that had button delays. I enjoyed mario, but it was responsive, same with crash on ps1, but games that had those long pauses between button pushing and actual reaction on screen have always bothered me.
I remember the first time I played fighting force, a friend rented it and I didn't care for it, because it was so unresponsive.
Maybe you just had more patience when you were younger and now you don't have time to wait for him to punch that guy.
Yeah I get what you're saying, Ben. I also loved games like Captain Blasto, Gran Turismo 2, Tekken 2, but I can't easily go back to them. The jRPG's seem to be the only games I go back to that I finish. I've barely put my PSP down since I got Xenogears! And playing that is a major visual downgrade to what we're used to these days.
So yeah… anything, perhaps not just rpg's as Lawless pointed out, that has some other factor beyond gameplay is something we can easily go back to. I probably wouldn't go back to FFVII JUST for the gameplay, but rather the whole package.
Something like Fighting Force or Captain Blasto, that has nothing besides gameplay to offer, is pretty impossible to go back to. But when you tie in a bunch of important factors, like story and characters, mixed with nostalgia and a style of gameplay that is simply not done anymore, you have what's called a timeless classic!
Legaia FTW! 😀
Seriously though I agree a good amount. RPG's definitely provide a lot more depth aside from gameplay, though I still sometimes find it a little more difficult to go through a good RPG again.
There are certain non-RPG games that to me have more replay value than some RPGs I have enjoyed due to sheer fun in the gameplay such as THPS 1&2 Spyro the Dragon, Crash Team Racing, Tenchu Birth of Stealth Assassins etc.
I think part of this is the fact that may of the early 3 dimensional games for ps1 really did have atrocious graphics (from todays stand point). I recently went to go try out Syphon Filter since it was free to plus members… could not make it past the first level. However there are other games I can go back and play though the graphics were less powerful because they look a lot more polished like Alundra and Azure Dreams, or even games from older days like NES/SNES/Sega.
I think RPGs do have more potential to over-come the graphic short-comings because of their added nostalgia resulting from the depth of the stories we remember. Probably everyone here has played FFVII more than once… however since I never tried it until a few years ago I kept losing interest IMO a big part had to do with the graphics. Since there is no nostalgia I probably wouldn't be able to play it without it being remade.
Yea, well that's my 2 cents
I had the same experience with FFVII: it never grabbed me and I didn't even finish it.
apologies if this posts multiple times
The genre is more nostalgiac because with good RPG's its also about the story and characters, and you fall in love with the characters and feel like your apart of their adventure. The sadest thing about RPG's with a narrative is when it ends. For me skies of arcadia, final fantasy 9 and final fantasy 10 ive always considered my top 3 fav games and fans of theese types of games will never forget the epic story and the awesome characters and whenever you think of them or go back to play them you enjoy them even more because of the OMG nostalgia just smacked me in the face. I remember thoose good times…when RPGS where good. The last good RPG (turn based with a epic storyline) in my opinion is lost oddyssey. And it ends there…….I will never ever forgive square for final fantasy 13 the biggest atrocity and final nail in the coffin for Story/character based RPGS. R.I.P RPGS.
Avatar approved of.
What no mention of Suikoden(s)? It deserves better than a "what have you".
That's true. I apologize. 🙂
Wait, what about the first 3 Crash Bandicoot games? Those games are still fun to play at this day and age, and they were mostly about gameplay.
They are still fun, however, on a large HD screen, they are almost unforgivably blocky. On a PSP, they work great. I think they continue to work because there really hasn't been another game of that genre with that style of game play that bettered the fluidity of game play and control.
Then isn't that the HD TV's fault, rather than the game's? What does graphics have to do with the way a game ages anyway? FFVII had poor graphics, yet it's still great.
And that's exactly where those old games belong. In our memories. They were good at the time and even if some had better stories and characters than others, it's still not something I'd want to go back to. What 30 year old wants to re-live his childhood? I mean really? I want games that appeal to me in the now.
To me, firing up those old classics just ruins the nostalgia. Yes many of them moved me. YEs many of them became my all-time favorites. But going back and replaying them? Now? Nah. I'm going to leave them as pleasant experiences that grew my love of games and move on to what I find to be the best generation of gaming yet.
Last edited by Alienange on 3/4/2011 11:00:30 PM
What if the best of the current generation can't even compare to the old games?
What does a love for the way games used to be made, like turn-based for example, have to do with 30 year olds wanting to relive their childhood?
Are you saying that's the case WorldEnds? I think you know that it's not.
I think it comes down to this. If a game is predicated on the game play, graphics and sound, then an older game will look and feel older to our contemporary eyes. If a contemporary game in the same genre, or even the same franchise comes along, we naturally compare it to the nostalgic favorite. We will look at that older game in comparison with the modern one and see that it's just not that great.
However where a game leans on character and story instead of relying on the technical elements of graphics and such, things are different. If you're reading a classic novel, does it matter if it's printed on paper, or on a kindle, or on a regular computer screen? Of course not, the content of the book matters more than the medium it is delivered on. This is because the novel depends on the words, the characters, and setting and story. Not the presentation. JRPGs are a mixed bag of story and character with some graphics and what not. So we can look at a game like FFVII and realize that it's graphics are hopelessly out of date today. However it's not the graphics that held our attention with the game, it's the characters and story. They haven't changed, and like reading a book, playing the JRPG isn't about the presentation as much as it is about the story and character.
Now, you'd expect me to say this, but I do think that the game mechanic has something to do with it as well. Turn based games are a bit slower and more strategic. You think more about the party and what they can do and who you are using. I think that this harmonizes with the story and character elements. In a more action based game, I feel that the system is less apt to do this, so old Lara croft games are just that, old.
So, I do think that JRPGS and turn based JRPGs in particular stand the test of time and nostalgia better, precisely because they are story heavy, character driven and require thought and consideration of the characters to play. These three things combine to make the whole greater than the sum of the three parts. And so these games retain their attraction despite technical advances, just like a classic novel does not lose it's attraction because you're reading it on a Kindle instead of a leather bound first edition.
A quick point of contention: Reading novels in a digital form actually does hamper my enjoyment of it somewhat. Don't know why. Would like to, but don't.
Outside of that, I can fully relate to what you're saying.
Classic games can only really stand the test of time for me if I didn't primarily value them for their technological sophistry during their prime(sometimes I can get both, like Half Life 2). I wonder how much I'll value playing KZ3 10 years from now when other more advanced looking and feeling games come to pass. Whatever KZ3 is doing now will more than likely be entirely usurped by something a whole lot like it in the future, complete with very similar gameplay but with massively enhanced visuals.
Though, when it comes to classic games like the NES Ninja Gaiden's, Contra's, classic Mario's, Shenmues, and Final Fantasy, I'm finding something in them even today that makes them enjoyable even all of these years later. The NES Gaiden's are still some of the best playing side scroller action platformers. Shenmue is still a totally unique experience that seems to break so many rules of modern game design but managed to be an intriguingly outstanding experience. Final Fantasy has highly detailed and imaginative worlds, fun character progression gameplay, and memorable music. There's things to value from those experiences that don't so quickly get outdated.
But similar to Ben, simulators like Madden or Gran Turismo serve a purpose of mimicking reality as closely as possible within the constraints of modern talent and hardware. To go back and play Madden '03, or something like it, would just pull me further away from the goal of what a Madden or Gran Turismo is trying to achieve, virtual simulation. The value in said games is in simulation, not music, story, unique "gameplay" etc. Whatever those experiences are doing will surely be surpassed with greater hardware, as greater hardware processing will cause said titles to draw closer to the detail and complexity of reality. Thus rendering prior incarnations obsolete in my mind.
One thing I can't stand is going back to play a game like Resident Evil or Dino Crisis and realizing that there simply is no way to retrain my brain to think that up is always forward. It just can't be done well enough for me to enjoy the game again.
When games went 3D (not the glasses kind) and began to use polygons over sprites there were just so many problems with cameras and controls that it's amazing we were able to look past so much back then. I tried to play Fighting Force 2 a couple months back and it was just unplayable.
I think RPGs are very susceptible to nostalgia, if for no other reason than the fact that the soud of RPGs as we knew and loved them has been all but eradicated in what is offered today.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/4/2011 11:41:15 PM
I get what you're saying. But weren't the Fighting Force games poorly rated even when they were new on the market?
I remember avoiding them back then because of their bad rep.
They probably were, but I know the first one was still fairly popular. I think in the PS1 days we didn't get nearly as many 8+ games as we do now.
Edit to Original post: soud=soul
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/4/2011 11:54:48 PM
World: That's pretty much what I said in my reply to Lawless above.
Now you mention it, that really irritated me in my short time with Silent Hill 3. The complete disconnection between camera and control is frustrating. Movement depends entirely on the character's direction and I'll be damned if I can get past that. I'll try again sometime soon.
Peace.
yeah, it's amazing how many quality games are out there to harvest these days. ANd while there were a lot less quality titles back then, I've always been a multi-platform gamer. Between Saturn, PSX, N64, and PC my bro and I usually always seemed to have ample amounts of quality games to play so I don't think I felt the (as my bro and I would say) gaming-doldrums as much as others who were more selective and frugal with platform ownership.
I still love me my platformers, I can play a platformer from any generation and still love it. Even ffVII hurts my eyes, but I get over it for that game
Thats just wrong. How can you not play MGS1? Its had everything; story, graphics, chracters, gameplay that is still somewhat unique today, and above else its the most nostalgic piece of nostalgia..liek evar! MGS4: Act 4..need I say moar? (hey that rhymns :D)
I'm with you on MGS. Man, that game was a monumental release that redefined cinematic storytelling in gaming (complete with standard setting fully spoken dialog). Heck, it also redefined stealth action for console games. It also had a great hollywood grade soundtrack.
I think I'll forever recognize it as one of the most pivotal and infleuncial releases during the 32-bit era. And I always get the nostalgic feel for it anytime I power it up.
It's hard to say, but I think it's too subjective.
I'd say Mario 3 is better than a lot of games, even in terms of gameplay.
Or Crash Bandicoot for example.
It also depends on one's tolerance/like of said genre.
But rpgs truly are unique because its gameplay never ages.
not at all, if anything its platformers.
simply because, well there dead.
well, 2D platformers at least, now we have uncharted, tomb raider, mario galaxy, but there allot different to the old day platformers.
RPGs are still very similar, ok you lost the turn based mechanic, the combat is different, but the storytelling, the environments, the artistic feel to the games is still there.
no genre has changed as much as platformers, and thats why there the most nostalgic.
what i would give to be back on the ps1 playing crash, spyro, GEK, medieval all over again!
I am pondering if i am simply a "poor gamer" if that exists, or an ignorant one because reading this article and the comments is something i have completly different experience with. I suppose you guys can flame me, and ben can tell me how wrong i am, but I STILL love fighting force. I used to rent it and play it with my uncle when i was little… and I can still play it and enjoy it today.
Sure, there is things I can see that could obviously be better, but at the time, it was kick ass. To me, I just prepare myself for what I am about to play. I can still play Resident Evil games, and MGS1, as well as golden eye, crash, spyro, battle toads, and plenty more. I still love baulders gate the same way I used to. Does that make me stupid or un educated in gaming? Personally of course I don't think so. I just remind myself that it takes getting used to before i start to play whatever old game it is, and I do just that. I get used to it, learn to adapt like we USED to have to, and I enjoy the game for it.
As for JRPG games I agree they are more EASILY nostalgic because of their story, but I don't personally think its that simple. just my .02. Flame on.
No flames here. I think that we like what we like. I mean there are plenty of old games I still like because I feel like they have no equal today. I broadly agree with Ben because there are so many instances where what he says is right, old games just don't match up with modern expectations, but JRPGs are relatively immune to that. At the same time there are also games from yesteryear that I love to play still, much as you do.
But at the end of the day, even if there is a broad trend there, we gamers like what we like. No one can criticize you or anyone else for that can they?
thanks highlander 🙂 sad part is people do, and will critizise anyone for almost anything anymore lol. i guess Maybe the only reason i still can enjoy the oldies as much as i used to is out of the passion for gaming i have (its prolly unhealthy lol) and that it makes me feel young again when i play them. makes me respect them more. I am only 24 but man remember playing games when you were like 10? nothing can take those awesome experences away from ya lol
I think any game can be a major nostalgia draw so long as you played it during a pivotal or otherwise significant time in your life.
I think you're onto something there, World. I think emotion has a lot to do with it. I think I'm convinced that anyone can pretty much be attracted to anything given the right circumstances. Like I stated in a prior post of mine, I can't see myself holding value in Gran Turismo 2 when I have Gran Tursimo 5. But I remember now speaking with a car-junkie-co-worker of mine many years ago. It was a few years after GT3's release and he had commented something like, "yeah, when I was playing GT2 last night … " and I'm like, "Whoa! serious? you still play that dinosaur?"
But basically he said he still enjoys going back to it despite having GT3.
We're all creatures on this earth processing and storing information and emotions in our brains. So whatever triggers the right blend of chemistry to make a dude feel nostalgic joy.. so be it. I'll leave the nitty-gritty science to the psychiatric professionals and I'll just go ahead and keep feeling my gaming highs, not thinking too hard as to why.
But hey, it was fun flirting with the topic.
Last edited by Temjin001 on 3/5/2011 7:54:10 PM
Well i have actually recently been playing through Final Fantasy VII again, My flatmate is playing through XII… To see the contrast is just staggering (eh eh!). I watch him play on XII and he's just going through these really bland areas slaying each enemy with attack, Theres no sense of progress with that game. 7 Hours in i asked him what he felt he has done so far in the story and he thought not much at all. While in Final Fantasy VII, 7 hours in you would have just gone through Midgar and the Kalm Town flashback story.
XIII i think solved much of this, the story did progress, but the battle system was just not accepted for being different. while it had a few flaws (The lead character dying resulting to game over!) the focus was more on the paradigms and being in the right class for the battle. One thing i have noticed abotu FFVII, it just doesnt get boring. I can play it for hours straight becuase the battle system is not slow (like XII) and very engaging. Training on VII just did not feel tedious becuase the benefits frequently appeared with levels up in each materia, characters and limits.
I will admit there is a sense of nostalgia, i was brought up with VII, VIII, IX and X and they still all remain in my top 10 favourite games. But i played XIII and loved it, not as much as the previous mentioned titles, but i really enjoyed it, possibly even my favourite game of this gen.
I;ve noticed when it comes to RPG's sqaure just does it right, look at Ressonace of Fate, i tried so hard to enjoy this game, but the battle system is just a horrid complicated mess. the 'world map' is also shoddy. Sqaure just never comes over with lousy game making, Even XII as bland as it was i can appreciate the detail of the locations, gameplay wise it's ok.
Saying that, I see Final Fantasy IV is being released on the PSP soon, i have yet to properly play it so i am very excited to now get a solid oppritunity. Even if it is classed as an old game, I think the game was made in 2D and thats how it should be enjoyed.
i really enjoyed ff13 as well. at first, the killing tubes and stripped down rpg elements are somewhat of a let down, but the game grew on me. i enjoyed it way more than ff12. i hated vaan, and the mmo like battle system.
I had the exact opposite reaction: FFVII bored me (somewhat) but FFXII held my attention for over 120 hours, even during the long gaps in the story.
Last edited by Fane1024 on 3/7/2011 12:59:41 AM
Yea, I thought Fighting Force was amazing when it first came out.
I'm planning on squeezing in Lunar 2 if I get the chance over the next few months. Those two games on PS1 are amazing and came in quite the package.
I have to agree. Plenty of games from the N64/PS1/Sega Saturn days aged very poorly. I picked up Resident Evil last year for the first time ever on the Playstation Store. One of the WORST purchases I ever made. That game is terrible. The controls, loading times, music, etc.
Everything was just terrible. That game is marveled as a starting point for horror games yet it fails at THAT too! Hell, the bottom of the well in 'Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time' is much scarier and and creepier than that game.
With that said, plenty of games age well. 'Crash Bandicoot', despite the graphics, aged very well in terms of gameplay. Hell, the graphics aren't so bad (the graphics look like 'Mass Effect 2' when compared to games like 'Final Fantasy VII' and 'Brave Fencer Musashi', both incredible RPGs that today visually look like crap today).
Not really a fan of RPGs like most of you lads but i can remember all the girls talking about FFVIII back in the day & how stunning it was.
For me games like Resident Evil (Resi Evil 2 in particular), Fear Effect, Dino Crisis, Tomb Raider & some of the classic point n' click adventures is what won my PSone days.
I noticed Fighting Force in the screenshot too, man i'd play that most afternoons & remember thinking it was the best side scrolling brawler since Streets of Rage 2.
Awesome stuff!