Arnold-KatayevOver the past couple of days, Ben's editorial has made the rounds with the
online gaming community. It's hit various feeds on Twitter, a few other gaming
sites, and even a podcast. Generally, the response to Ben's Killzone 2 Edge
piece has been met with heavy criticism. As such, as the Co-founder and
Executive Editor of the site, I've found myself in a weird position. For the 10
years I've been at the helm of PSXE, I don't believe we've ever once been called
a fanboy site. Yes, it is a Sony centric site, but every editor here has always
been hired on the basis of being open minded about their gaming views; it's been
that way for a while now.
Granted, when the site was just launched I was much younger, so the quality of
work you'll find if you start digging around to prove me wrong is separated by a
timespan of 10 years. In any case, I'd just like to point some things out about
Ben Dutka, while at the same time clarifying some others. It's important to know
that despite Ben's passionate editorials, he was hired to write for PSX Extreme
as an owner of an Xbox 360 and a PlayStation 2, the latter of which had been
largely sidelined by him after his HD acquisition.
Ben has sung nothing but high praises for the Xbox 360, and has tried to
convince me numerous times to buy one. Ben's logged as many hours on his Xbox
360 last year as he has his PlayStation 3. With games like Lost Odyssey, Left 4
Dead, and especially Gears of War 2, I still have to decline Ben's persuasion
largely because I feel like I won't play the machine that much. Gaming has
become more of my job than it has my hobby, and if I need to experience and
compare a multiplatform game I have Xbox 360 access at my best-friend's house.
Nobody who's deemed a fanboy would continuously try to convince me to buy the
PlayStation 3's biggest rival; it is simply not the way of the fanboy. Ben has
repeatedly mentioned that Gears of War 2 is his second game of the year title
for 2008, yes, putting it above his love for Resistance 2. And even then, Ben
has a reservation or two, feeling that in some cases maybe Gears of War 2 is his
GOTY? And that would mean, *gasp*, putting it above Metal Gear Solid 4. So let's
just say that Ben's GOTY is a tie between the biggest Xbox 360 game of 2008, and
the biggest PlayStation 3 game of 2008.
I've been around plenty of fanboys in the past, and I can attest that Ben is not
one of them. That is simply not how we hire people around here. His passionate
stand against Edge was misinterpreted by many as lacking integrity and the wrong
way for gaming journalism. And I believe that a lot of the negativity comes from
people who simply don't know enough about Ben's gaming habits. His response to
Edge's review may not have dissected their Killzone 2 piece by pointing out its
faults, but that's largely because it was a quick article where Ben just wanted
to get a message across…looks like it worked. I've read the Killzone 2 review
myself, and believe me, it'd be easy for anyone to point out the obvious flaws
in it – the most obvious being that they complain about things in KZ2 that other
games like COD4, Gears of War 2, and Halo 3 got passes for. The other major
complaint being that they spent, essentially, one tiny, closing paragraph
remarking how nice the multiplayer was.
Don't get what I'm saying wrong. I honestly couldn't care less if Edge gave
Killzone 2 a 3, I'd just prefer that they wrote a review that matched the score.
Instead, the context of the review seemed to dance around with cleverly
constructed quips and such, with an entire page dedicated solely to the opening
bit of the game. Give us legitimate reasons why you didn't enjoy Killzone 2 as
much as others did, Edge. Don't list reasons that you've given other games
passes for. And I know that I shouldn't bring up other reviews because different
people review different games. But collectively, they are reviewing these games
representing one sole publication, so the review process should have some sort
of consistency that reflects how they've judged games in the past. That's just
me, though, and I don't expect everyone to agree – just ask that you see where
I'm coming from with this.
Killzone 2 isn't the be-all-and-end-all of first person shooters. It's an
amazing game, but it will surely be replaced with something even more amazing in
the coming days. We just believe that it was reviewed poorly, and ask Edge to
have their writing reflect their scores more clearly, even if it means being
harsher with their grading scale, on top of being even more brutal, although
more concise and detailed with the context of their reviews.
I also wanted to add that the comical remarks about Ben being some kid in
someone's basement couldn't be further from the truth. Ben Dutka is neither a
kid (he's 31), nor a scrawny, whiny kid, as I have seen implied by some, nor is
he living in anyone's basement. Truth is, Ben Dutka is the Hulk. So let's not
get into the personal stuff, because no one reading knows what Ben actually
looks like. Some say, he's got Dual Shock analog sticks for thumbs, and Xbox
analog sticks for his big toes. All I know is that he's Ben Dutka. And me having
to point out that he's not a scrawny, pent up kid seems childish in a way, I'm
well aware, but it seems relevant in another.
I don't know how much of this cleared anything up. Maybe I've just lit up a new
fire, which isn't my intention. I wrote this with the sole purpose of dousing
the flames, and have people understand that PSX Extreme is not a site for
fanboys. You want some proof? Go look at my review of Grand Theft Auto: San
Andreas – one of the biggest PlayStation 2 timed-exclusives – or read my review
of MotorStorm 1 and MotorStorm 2, and then look at the review of Pure, which I
scored quite a bit higher than MS2. Just because something is a first-party
title, or exclusive, doesn't automatically make us defend it more than something
else, and that should be made clear. We'd have made a stink about a review if
the game in question was some mega third-party title and not necessarily an
exclusive. While I'm in no position to make demands to Edge, I kindly ask that
they treat their reviews with a bit more detail on the game, even if that means
harsher content and lower scores.
P.S. Caught up with the hunger of me running on nothing but coffee…I completely forgot to mention, but intended mentioning, one important aspect to PSX Extreme. Those who have been with us know that for about three years, we also operated a sister site called Xbox Nerds. Granted, while the site wasn't anywhere near as successful as PSXE, we still tried to keep it going for as long as we could, because we genuinely like the Xbox platform as a whole and wanted to cover it, as well. We folded XBNerds last year, as with a staff of only two, focusing on a whole other manufacturer was very difficult. So again, before the fanboy comments begin to pass around, keep that in mind.
This kind of makes me laugh. Let Ben say what he wants to say.
Everyone else is doing it. At least he provided points as to WHY he was saying what he was saying 😉
If you have opinions, You'd better come equipped with reasons. I take everything with a grain of salt. Im no sheep.
Does anyone else besides me find it sad that the review of a game that hasn't released yet seems to be getting more hype then the game itself? Maybe this is what Sony meant by saying that they had a new advertising blitz for this game.
Let it go..Edge reviewed it and gave it the mark they felt it deserved, for what ever reason. PSX reviewed it here and gave it the rating they felt it deserved. In the end it's going to be up to the consumer to wade through the BS to figure out their own opinion of the game. Me? I knew I would be buying it before I saw any of the reviews. And I still plan on buying it.
So like a sheep to the slaughter, my 60 bucks will be lining up on the release day to grab this game, with or without the rest of you.
If you are the type of person who researches a product before buying it, do you take the word of the first person who gives you their opinion? Try buying a car that way, see how far you get.
I seem to remember Ben getting some flak last spring for not giving GTAIV a 10/10 when everyone else in the industry was. Did any of you look at his review and say "Oh well if he says it's not a ten then I'm not getting it!" (I know he didn't mark it as low as a 7 but that's not really my point)And no offense Ben, I enjoy reading your reviews but you're not the only one I look at to decide if I'm getting a game…Sorry if I let you down.
;P
Plain and simple, Killzone 2 is a FPS…if you're into that genre, then you're already pretty much guaranteed to be impressed with this game, no matter what anyone else says. If you're not, then the graphics will probably wow you if the game play doesn't. If you don't think that this is your type of game..well d-uh, don't buy it…Now was that so hard?
Fanboys, get over yourselves, all that hate flaming is doing is proving to the rest of the world that gamers are immature, emotionally
stunted punks who need to get outside more…and that's the kind of thing you hear about on Fox News..and nobody wants that, because too many people who can't think for themselves watch Fox News.
Well I've said my two cents worth, I'll see you on the killing fields!
PSX EXTREME ben and arnold have played this thing out so well i respect u guys even more… even though i feel like u did nothing wrong in the first place the fact that these idiots dont get what u were trying to say about the edge review, and keep hating on you, and u guys just shrug it off like u should, or maybe not shrug it off completely but let people say what they say and keep your cool is exceptionally noticed, keep doing what your doing i love it!
This is what I see:
Based on the demo and beta (which I've played) KZ2 is a 9+ game. Not perfect, but damn near.
Edge writes a review that's pretty far to the left of what other reviewers have written as well as what most of us have experienced.
They compounded the problem of releasing a questionable score, with shoddy journalism.
Ben called them on it.
360 fanboys who can't take shots at the game itself take shots at Ben and what they like to deem as fanboyism instead.
I still haven't heard any of Ben's detractors even TRY to claim that the Edge review is well-written. They can't.
I still say, Katt Williams was right. If you don't have haters then you're not on your job.
"I still haven't heard any of Ben's detractors even TRY to claim that the Edge review is well-written. They can't."
Well said Troy, I have been looking for that but can't seem to find it anywhere!
Ahahahahahah! Holy shit, I needed that laugh. I love that dude.
Even so, does that make it ok to call them out? Ofcourse it only brings more attention to Edge, I don't think any Edge readers will detract from going to the site just because they gave KZ2 a bad review. So what did Ben really accomplish, besides coming to the aid of a PS3 exclusive, thus making him look like a Fanboy in the end?
Wizard I think you are missing the point on a lot of this. You did say one thing correctly, everyone does need to chill. Move on already!
@lylecapua
i respect your opinion against ben.. but saying that you won't buy kz2 because of ben, that's an idiotic thing to say! it's like saying that if there's a game that you want and there's someone who will criticize a game's review because of unreasonable scores, you will decide not to buy the game.. you're really an idiot! that's all i have to say..
one quick question what is SW2 and who are the SW2 guys? and how are they making Bio look bad? I am sorry I just really don't get it
@Bio
Dude…am I missing something? Seems like your having conversations with yourself.
Just ignore it. We'll deal with it internally.
Bio is the enemy of the forums, a messenger of hate who was an employee at one time and has a personal vendetta.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 2/12/2009 5:41:11 PM
Ryan ?
"Basically, Bio is just repeating the message that all SW2 members need to stay OUT. …as if we can't recognize them."
— Ben was here
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 2/12/2009 4:33:16 PM
I have major respect for this site and it's writers. I feel the same way on these issues as Ben. If I had the public forum to write my own editorial about the Edge reviews it would have turned out just like Ben's. I have Ben and Arnold's back on issues like this, because they say what a lot of gamers wish they could say on a public forum to the gaming community. Thank you, Ben and Arnold for standing up for the things a lot of gamers are passionate about.
Last edited by Evil Incarnate on 2/12/2009 4:36:04 PM
@dlte I made this comment further up and it was in response to Digital Pimp.
"Your a nobody, so who cares what you think."
Last edited by Evil Incarnate on 2/12/2009 5:11:01 PM
This is most excellent, but I am an individual who lacks self awareness. You all know me so I put forth a challenge, do you think I'm a fanboy?
What is sad is that everyone fell into Edge's trap and they got more than I suspect even they expected, and they've done this kind of thing before too.
First off Edge are by no means paid up or paid for 360 fanboys-they just aren't or would Mass Effect be wearing it's very own seven with such pride?
The truth is far duller but less slanted. They often savage a big game or exclusive(Mirror's Edge-funny when they always hammer games for lack of innovation but still-got a five, R2 got a six and the list goes on…)against the grain of apparent critical opinion and this time it just happens to be a PS3 exclusive that got the treatment.
I know print magazines are falling in circulation and Edge's has been under considerable pressure so the kind of attention scores(not the reviews as they often don't really reflect the number atuck on the end)like the KZ2 one get are precious ad selling mana from heaven. The traffic through their site hit the roof and will, no doubt, have kept people buying ad space.
I don't even buy the indie cool "we mark hard and contrary for cred" argument that much. I think it's all about the bottom line of keeping the mag and site healthy by whatever means and if the odd score seems a bit low then so be it. Not biased, imo, just after hits for ad sales-I might be wrong. I may be over simplifying but I honestly can't find a better explanation for what seems from their past scores to be some kind of policy decision to occasionally, when it'll create the right stir, drop a controversial one. I just hope that next time we don't fall for it as they would be better served dropping the scores altogether as , actually,some of their guys can really write a bit.
a first person platformer aught to have at least garnered more praise by all, it is very innovative. I didn't dig it, but that means nothing because I am a single person, the critics that cry out about innovation need to take notice when it comes. Mirror's Edge was massive in it's very own little respect, PSN titles are massive in their own little respect. To judge gaming on this and then turn around to F the devs in the ass is a Nazi goose-step. Plain and simple. There was a leap forward in platformers, who the hell knows if it'll catch on but the game is not horseshit.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 2/12/2009 6:05:57 PM
I was trying to defend ben after I saw some stuff bout him on n4g, though I was rather late to the party. lol though I only talked bout how he defended gow2 and j360. Though I have not been here long overall I have been here long enough to say ben is no fanboy and my opinion won't be changed by a review of ben no matter how low he scores. lol
Didn't you expect to be called a fanboy site after the tonne of articles about how wonderful the PS3 is that have appeared on this site over the past few months?
Anyway, why would you write an article just to attack another site's reviews? Is there some rule that says PSXE is always right and everyone else's opinions and view points are wrong if they differ?
Would you like it if another game's site started writing articles about where they disagree with you?….well, this article proves that point doesn't it? you had to write a huge article defending yourselves just because of how much it hurt you to be criticized. Not so fun when the shoe is on the other foot is it?
I used to have respect for this site. but lately it's starting to look a bit like Fox News, unable to understand the word hypocrite.
and btw, if you wanna see fanboys, just watch the attacks i'll get for my opinions here.
There aren't a "ton" of articles about how "great the PS3 is." If any exist at all, it's to point out something specific in response to certain news the machine is getting. Sites do this. It's called coverage.
Secondly, at no point did anyone ever even imply, for even a brief second, that PSXE is "always right." At NO point in ANY editorial has this happened. In fact, that's not even part of any argument. Third, it was not designed to "attack" anything, it was written in the interest of the consumer, who is being deceived in our opinion (thus, the title of the previous editorial).
Fourthly and lastly, what we're going isn't a "defense" of anything. It's a clarification from both Arnold and I, which you clearly didn't read, or don't bother to acknowledge. I don't really care. To be honest, I'm sick of you popping up every single time someone says anything even remotely good about the PS3 and dropping the insinuation that we're all just a bunch of biased creeps.
FYI…not many agree with you, as evidenced by the Comments here and in my piece. Take from that what you will.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 2/12/2009 6:45:33 PM
lol man, lots have started to criticise psx, with your logic you could also say that those who criticised psx are doing something wrong including you, so ask you a question do you like the comments that follows yours, are they ignorant comments, are we fanboys just a bunch of retards to you, are you smarter than us, if MOST of us disagree with you are we wrong or is it just are opinion?
too drunk to read even urs arnold, but this is coming from a guy who hates FPS other than BIOSHOCK, COD4.
i love this game , i think it is awesome at first i thought the control was occurred but after setting it this game rules, my first FPS preorder ever
You got some good things to say Arnold but people seem to turn a blind eye towards the truth these days .
So just because it's centered around ONE console it's a fanboy site?
Heh funny, that's the kind of bullsh*t you'd hear 7 year olds say.
well, technically it covers four consoles, with one out of production =D
Top five Fanboy sites
1 Gametrailer
2 Gamespot
3 IGN
4 G4TV
5 1UP
all multiplat games they always show 360 covers even when they were showing a ps3 trailer/gameplay
I find it funny how no one has YET to properly defend Edge's review(not the score… the REVIEW).
They are SO SURE that we're upset by the score that they completely ignore what we're ACTUALLY talking about. -_-"
Its sad… for them, really.
You guys keep it real,Powers is MVP of this comment page,WOOP WOOP!! way to spit game and shut the fanboys up!!!
well, wow.
Good article Arnold though it's a shame you felt the need to write it. Seems some people are reading things in Ben's editorial which aren't there. I would have thought we'd all agree that a review and a score should be connected in some way and that fair comparison should take place against the rest of it's genre. Anything less is shoddy and unprofessional. Ben simply had the means and the conviction to say what we all thought.
I''m happy if a fairly given score happens to be low, as long as the meat of the review justifies it. THAT is the callout Ben was making, not the fact that the score given lower than many may have expected.
Last edited by Gabriel013 on 2/13/2009 2:11:10 AM
Dude, it's not about the 360. It's about making a HUGE deal about a fine score. They didn't like the game, but gave it a high score for what they said so really, theres no excuse.
If you're not even willing to read my explanation in the other editorial, please STOP making comments that have NO bearing on ANYTHING. The very point is that 7, in direct contrast – which is all that matters – is an obnoxiously LOW score.
"Hey Arnold" I really don't think you need to support Ben on this site because anyone who has spent ANY time reading his reviews would know how balanced he has tried to keep his reviews.
You can never please anyone. I played the demo for Killzone 2 and Fear 2, even though KZ2 is FARRRRRRRR shorter, and I'm getting upset by this two gun rule nowadays, I enjoyed the mechanics better and paid it off one time at *GASP* Gamestop. *I wanted to get the deluxe Street Fighter IV but it seems it has sold out but that is another story*.
It also shows the character of the people behind the scenes by this article. Obviously by backing Ben, you believe in the guy and in his reviews whether or not you may agree with some of the content.
Edge is just some OTHER company who has their own opinions. It's not like every review is golden. There were people who said if you owned the Bioshock for 360 made no sense to buy it for the PS3. I have it for both, I have my figurine and I beat it on the PS3…not even halfway on the 360 dont really sure why. Good job guys.
Where the Hell did DigitalPimp and LyleCapua spawn from? 😛
xD
omg – only just caught up with goings on here…. what a sh@t storm!!!
Its interesting to me that Ben is being called "childish" actually. In a sense he is…. in that when he is expressing "fanboy" comments, he usually points out quite openly that this is what he is doing – in a naive, childish kind of way,
From what I read, most sites take a much more "adult" approach – you know: saying one thing and meaning another. Pretending to objectivity, but all the while feeding subjective fuel to the flames of one after another anti-ps3 diatribes.
Comes to something anyway when you can't express like for something ps3 (openly) without it causing such rage. Seems only backhanded compliments and other underhand reportage is acceptable nowadays.
Hey ho, so it goes…
I am gonna make my Sackboy on LBP the Ben that is crying to get out the huge hulk that he is. lol.
@ Worldendswithme I challenge you to a duel *slap slap across both face cheeks with a glove* lol only kdding dude I dont think your fanboy. Just thought it would lighten the mood somewhat or I was hoping to.
I will end by saying this I have been here now since 2006 (I checked the other day) and have posted on here in the comments bit since it was available and I realised I could and recently in the forums (Arnold I am plugging the forums here lol, upto 76 posts I believe) anyhow I dont want to say this as I found myself saying it a lot a while back. I have both machines PS3/360 I am not a fanboy. I am merely a fan of games. I got my 360 for Halo, PS3 for MGS4 and I admit saying this to friends before I even bought the machines that was the reason why I was getting both machines which have good and bad points.
I do not like my 360 any less than I do my PS3. Far from it I love both my machines equally. Granted my games I tend to buy for my PS3 a lot (unless they are 360 exclusives) because of the free online play. If Microsoft did this I would sure be in a pickle which machine to buy and play the games for as I like them both the same.
Ben/Arnold and the others great site, love it been here for ages and will continue to be.
P.S I used to love Xboxnerds too and used to go there also, shame it had to close but thats life.
I do believe people don't read the whole article before commenting. I have read both ben's/arnolds and the edge website and i see where ben and arnold are coming from it's not the game review it's the review doesn't meet or make sense for the number it was given. Heck i didn't even understand the review edge gave it, the reason why i like this website is because it's not all fanboyish many of us have either a 360/ps3 combo or a Wii/ps3 combo or well you get the idea basically we all have one thing in common on this website and it's we are all gamers not fanboys yes some come on here and stir the pot a little but arnold and ben make sure they are removed or warned i don't think i have been on a website that has admins so Passionate about their website. I commend ben and arnold on a great website.
Ben was trying to point out yet another case of bad gaming journalism. Nothing more.
Being attacked like this simply proves his previous articles about the PS3 hate that is in the gaming media. Ben himself has written several articles about how fanboys cheapen the industry as whole, saying this: "You know, [faboyism] is the reason why I'm oftentimes embarrassed to say I'm a video games reporter amongst other journalists." (taken from the article: "PS3 Hate Boils Over, Fanboy "Journalists" Embarrass The Industry")
A whole lot of people need to read Ben's "Taking the Zen Approach" article. Calm down, and remember why we game in the first place.