Ben-DutkaSometimes, I question the timing of such news.
I know the announcement of the Uncharted 4: A Thief's End delay didn't come as a huge surprise to everyone. That being said, I find it interesting that it was announced not long after the ordeal surrounding The Order: 1886 .
We know the reasons why Ready at Dawn's game didn't fare so well with the critics. Granted, it wasn't a stellar game; it had its fair share of problems and I wouldn't label it a "AAA exclusive." In fact, I don't think PlayStation 4 has one yet. That being said, I firmly believe the critical reception of The Order showed a clear bias in the industry: We just don't like strictly linear games anymore. We call them "outdated." On top of which, game length has become a ridiculously gigantic topic. When we consider all these factors, I wonder if Naughty Dog wasn't at least a little vexed by the situation.
Yes, Uncharted 4 will be more open. They've said it several times. But maybe now they're seeing that it isn't open enough and they have to do more; if it even smells like a strictly linear adventure, critics will just bash the hell out of it. Well, not all critics, of course, but that's the direction the industry is headed. Then there's the length; what if Drake's new adventure was coming up a little on the short side when compared with previous installments. They were usually 8-12 hours or so (or maybe 10-15, depending on your play style), which is still acceptable…I think. But what if Uncharted 4 was only coming in at 7 or 8 hours? That was the length of The Order , regardless of what some moronic sources want to claim.
Lastly, both are third-person shooters. A lot of people called the gameplay in The Order "dated" and "repetitive" and this might be another concern for Naughty Dog. There are indeed a lot of similarities between the two exclusives in question, and when one of them nets only 6s on average, it would definitely concern me as a developer. That's all I'm saying.
They wanted to hire a bunch of staff still. I think it's been a ways off for a while.
"We're shooting for a late 2015 release but probably won't happen till 2016"
Nah. It's influenced by the fact they take their time with their games.
Doesn't mean they don't take notice of current events.
Taking notice doesn't have to relate to having an affect.
This delay has been in the making for a long time. The Order ordeal has nothing to do with it I can't absolutely guarantee it.
First ND has been saying for months that they really wanted to hit 60fps but it's been hard to. Point is maybe they can get it there but need more time.
Second they wanted to hire some new employees probably to help button up the game. This is not normal because of the timing.
Thirdly I can guarantee another thing, the length isn't an issue. ND is sp first and they always put everything they have into delivering an excellent experience.
And lastly ND has nothing to worry about. They are arguably the best developer right now, backed by Sony. Delaying their game doesn't somehow benefit them in anyway. Anyone who thinks a developer would delay a super popular, super successful franchise game in the holiday season because of reviews for a different style of game is stretching for something. Anything. This makes no sense to me.
This delay is because ND is a fantastic developer who cares about their end products being as good as possible for their consumers.
Last edited by bigrailer19 on 3/14/2015 12:02:29 AM
Well said. Every Uncharted was a masterpiece, even the underwhelming 3rd game. The Order, sadly, is a very boring game to play unlike Uncharted no matter the length. No relation indeed!!!
The thing is, if Uncharted 4 doesn't reinvigorate TPS with something fresh, dare I say "innovative" it could get similar treatment to The Order. Uncharted has never changed much or broken boundaries (except maybe in cinematics)and Critics are on the warpath to kill anything that isn't super new fangled.
The question is, will a grappling hook accomplish this?
Call of Duty
It's not the gameplay being generic that's the problem. It's how you execute that so called generic gameplay.
The imagination may be limitless, but there's a line to where innovation is limited because of the nature of this world and what it allows. You also have to take into account the setting, and realism of the game. For example, it wouldn't be a game with lasers or jetpacks.
What you call grappling hook, is far from being innovative, cause it's been done before. Sure it's new to the series, but my point lies on that the game doesn't need to be innovative in the sense that it's genre changing. The proper term is adding more gameplay elements, but not necessarily innovative. It can be things that are done before, like the grapple hook.
Now if we talk about a different setting like infamous, then that limitation of innovation is raised. That's why it got flakked, for being too similar to previous iteration. Same with the Order. Futuristic guns, fictional setting, and unrealistic stuff like heal potions and what not, you kinda expect more crazy stuff like you'd do with infamous.
So yeah, it only needs innovation if the game is of certain type. Uncharted, there's just not much more innovating to do, if any. Remember, adding new gameplay elements or features that's been done before isn't being innovative by its definition alone.
No. I don't believe so.
This is really stretching it.
I agree.
I wonder how open UC4 will be, sandbox like gta or far cry, or just like tomb raider…
It's not a sand box game and won't even compare to GTA.
They are merely opening it up to allow for variation in environment and how the player can handle certain situations. At least that's what I got from the gameplay trailer. May not sound like much but for this series it could be a big step.
maybe more like tomb raider just its more like that type of game
new console generations & delays go hand in hand
Don't mind waiting for quality.
.
.
.
As the wife says…
Nope.
Nothing to do with the Order. Imo of course.
1. Has people ever complained about uncharted, last of us, or tomb raider for that matter, being too linear? Add that with the intention to be more open for uc4. What's after being more open? Free roam? Lol. So yeah, no.
2. Third person shooter? It was a problem for the Order because the game had little to do. You shoot, then what? In uncharted, you explore, climb, jump over cliffs, fight, and most importantly NO qte.
3. Length? Uncharted had consistently been over the 10 hour mark, so you're saying that it might only be 5-8 hours?
Real reason, imo, simple. They stated over and over how hard it was to reach full hd with 60fps. Are we forgetting these guys are one of the elite devs that set the standard in graphical and technical performance? Bottom line, order an average game but looks beautiful. Ever cross anyone's mind that they want to one up it?
This is one of the weaker arguments I've seen, but keep them coming, cause some are really good Ben. Just honestly disappointed with this one.
i really don't care and i know i'm a minority in the games industry as a gamer with my views on this but not around here which is nice. i think it will be fine and i think it is fair to say that thay may have delayed becuase the game wasn't open enough of not long enough so that people won't be wining but cheering ont that i think people will whine with ND at the head of this one but it think it'll be fine regardless thats just me
happy gaming
Nah, I doubt it.
Uncharted 4 has had a trouble development cycle. It was originally 2being developed by Uncharted 3 director Justin Richmond and writer Amy Hennig but then something went wrong and both developers left Naughty Dog for other studios. Because of that, Uncharted 4 needed to be re-done with new director(s) and writer(s) Neil Druckman and Bruce Straley (they came onto the project in June 2014).
My guess is they had to restart development from scratch so they need more time to complete Uncharted 4 in their vision now (they're also working on The Last of Us movie so their schedules are probably packed; if I were them I'd ask for a delay too).
I seriously doubt Naughty Dog is afraid of critics. Their last game was almost GOTY and received 30 perfect scores from game websites despite being a linear third-person action-adventure game.
Its uncharted its gonna outsell and get better reviews that 1886 even if they didnt take the time to change the game because of its title alone…. kind like final fantasy.. everyone talks about how horrible XIII was yet it had two sequels so clearly LOTS of ppl still bought those horrible games
While that's true, a bigger factor is simply that Naughty Dog is one of the top one or two developers in the industry right now. They know what they're doing, they've been killing it for years now. They don't care one whit that people didn't like The Order, other than perhaps empathy for a fellow studio, and they certainly aren't going to change their vision of the game because of it.
You are right, though, that they could sail to 8+ average scores and millions in sales based on brand alone, even though I'm sure they're not resting on their laurels since that's something they just don't do.
Bio: Contrary to what you might think, developers don't live in this isolated little bubble of creation. And even if they wanted to, any good publisher wouldn't let them. If you're not in tune with what the market wants – and demands – you're destined to fail; product quality becomes entirely irrelevant.
The idea that neither Naughty Dog nor Sony looked at The Order: 1886 and didn't draw some conclusions from its reception is ridiculous. There's no knowing how it may affect future projects or first-party studios, but this is a business. Further, this particular industry has proven immensely fluid for decades. If you're not paying attention, you lose out.
There's a reason Uncharted 4 is more open and I absolutely guarantee that it's not 100 percent due to the developers' vision. I also guarantee that as leaders in a particular genre, they're looking at other games in that genre and seeing how they're received. Sure, they don't need to steal from other devs, nor do they require a lot of outside influence. But they remain a group that's trying to make a successful commercial product, and the idea that they don't care and/or don't notice what happens with similar products, and that this isn't at least TALKED about in their offices, is just plain ludicrous.
You can't guarantee anything, Ben. You don't sit in on their development meetings, and you don't have any special inside track or source, nor any special insight into the industry that hundreds of other people do not have.
You can keep saying you "guarantee" this or that, and use absolutes, but they don't sway people. No, they really don't. If anything, it comes off as over compensating and insecure. That's not me trying to be a dick, that's honest and friendly advice.
Naughty Dog isn't even trying to make the same kind of game as The Order. You pointed out extremely superficial similarities (oh really, they're BOTH third person shooters? OH EM GEE), and forgot all the things that make Naughty Dog the standout developer they are. Story, level design, scripting, direction, production value, innovation, combining several complex gameplay elements such as shooting, melee, puzzle solving and platforming into one cohesive experience… did The Order have any of that?
That's why literally every comment on this article disagrees with your speculation, not just mine. I like that you zeroed in on mine, though. Makes me feel special 🙂 Thanks bb!
Last edited by Bio on 3/14/2015 12:06:29 PM
I have to agree with Bio on this one Ben. This feels like you are trying to make a story where there isn't one. IMO, the delay had absolutely zero to do with anything regarding The Order. Coincidentally, I loved The Order. Yeah, it was a short game but I am and always have been SP oriented. The Order was a great SP experience for me. Uncharted is my favorite game series and I hope what you are saying isn't true. If they change their game to satisfy the critics then that would go against what ND has always said. They make games for gamers. To hell with these ADD riddled critics. Sorry Ben. I think you are way off on this one.
Word, Rogers. Rogers is actually my middle name so right on!
Also it really insults Naughty Dog when you act like they are so insecure about their product that they would be creatively influenced by something as trivial as a review average for a completely different type of game. The Order is NOT the same thing as UC, not even close.
rogers71: Nobody is saying Naughty Dog will change anything. It was just a suggestion.
Bio: You can't even read now? Your takeaway from this is that I'm implying Naughty Dog is INSECURE? LOL
Just one question in all that self-righteous, lecturing BS: Are you honestly going to sit there and say developers and publishers don't bother with other products on the market, and don't take them into consideration when creating other products? Based on what you're saying, Naughty Dog made Uncharted 4 bigger and more open entirely of their own accord, and it would've happened anyway, regardless of the obvious trend towards that style of gameplay in the industry. And that if the trend was the opposite – more toward linear – the team still would've made Uncharted 4 more open. Right?
Just want to make sure that's what you're saying.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 3/14/2015 4:35:32 PM
He's saying *you* come across as insecure and over compensating when you go on with your guarantees and absolutes, Ben.
He's also saying that you don't know this any more than he do, so it's all speculation anyway. And as such, few seem to agree with your speculations. For better or worse.
As for the topic at hand, I think Naughty Dog have opened up the game a bit now because of two reasons:
1) The main reason: Feedback from their customers.
2) Technical reasons: They always wanted to, but now they *can* do that without losing graphical fidelity. They'd do it earlier if they could.
So even if the big trend today was going more linear I believe they'd do the same, simply cause they today are practically as linear as it is possible to get, so there's nothing to gain there.
That's my assumptions. Nothing more, nothing less.
Last edited by Beamboom on 3/14/2015 6:16:49 PM
Ten points to Beamboom for A+ reading comprehension.
I read and comprehended what Bio wrote.
But while it's plausible they don't care a lot about what The Order did or did not do, I've got to completely reject the idea that they aren't paying attention and trying to learn from the situation. Whether they need to or choose to actually make changes with that information is irrelevant. They -must- be paying attention to some degree. (At least I more than hope they do)
Thinking that they're so uncaring that they're ignoring it altogether seems naive to me. (despite how nice it would be to pretend ND is untouchable)
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/14/2015 7:09:22 PM
And Bio still hasn't answered my question.
Beamboom: "1) The main reason: Feedback from their customers."
That's exactly the same thing as examining what works in the current marketplace. That's all I've been saying.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 3/14/2015 8:54:07 PM
Silly questions don't require answers, Ben.
"Thinking that they're so uncaring that they're ignoring it altogether seems naive to me."
Call it what it is, Underdog: STUPID.
I see, so the answer is yes, then. You do believe that Naughty Dog made Uncharted 4 more open because it was 100 percent their vision, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the shifting trends in the industry. And that if the industry was heading in the opposite direction, Uncharted 4 would still have turned out the same, right?
I mean, at this point, you're just saying developers in no way look at the current marketplace. That's insanely idiotic even for you.
Yeah, and one of the top tier developers of the past ten years changing their vision for a game because of a metacritic average on a completely unrelated game/genre isn't stupid as all get out lol
People didn't like The Order, Ben. Get over it already.
I was trying to be nice about it. 😉
"Yeah, and one of the top tier developers of the past ten years changing their vision for a game because of a metacritic average on a completely unrelated game/genre isn't stupid at all get out lol"
First off, "top tier" developers come and go with the times. Don't pretend their staffing isn't remarkably dissimilar now, and it would be heinous to think they're invincible. Second, do you know what The Order is? You just said it's in a completely unrelated genre…
When you're as absolute as that, Bio, you lose a ton of credibility. It is pretty stupid to pretend ND doesn't give a crap about how the industry responds to what other exclusive titles did or didn't do. Especially other 3rd person shooters. I don't think the delayed release date is in response to The Order's reception, but that's where my agreement with you ends… Mostly because the rest of it is straight up incorrect. So incorrect, in fact, that it isn't even an opinion… it's ignorance.
Your problem on this issue is that you don't seem capable in looking at any of the grey area between the two extremes of the topic. ND might not be even a SMIDGEN worried. That's quite possibly true, and that is where the validity in your "opinion" exists. But to act like they don't take note nor try to learn even one iota of information is… as Ben said… stupid.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/14/2015 11:43:52 PM
ND may be paying attention to the industry but it has absolutely nothing to do with the delay. This article is the most far fetched I've ever read on this site. It's reaching for something but there's nothing to grab.
ND has a powerful machine to develop for and being able to make it more open comes with the ability to actually be able to. Second most fans of the series don't mind Uncharted being linear. But ND is listening to feedback sure. Based on that they are creating something that can appease a wider audience while keeping it's core structure.
But that's not what this is about. This about an article about ND delaying Uncharted 4 because of critical feedback for a different type of game. Again unless it was something technical they are really trying to either workout or achieve delaying the game out of the holiday season doesn't benefit them at all.
Bio is absolutely right and that is the problem with journalism/reviews. Its the same with statements like? The PS4 does not have any AAA exclusives" or whatever.
That is an opinion and not a fact.many disagree including me.Gaming journalism as a whole has become trash and websites just want to get clicks.This was one of the last few places I still visit and read opinions on.
I like to read someone's difference of opinion, but it should not be pushed as absolute.it makes it seem like reviews or the media have more power than they should and they don't.
The ego of the gaming media has gotten way too big.Once again reviews are irrelevant to everyone I know off the net and I believe it is the same for developers,but ND are one of the most respected and loved so U4 will get great reviews even if it does not deserve it.
Trying to pick out the content from all the noise here :):
Ben, quoting: "That's exactly the same thing as examining what works in the current marketplace. That's all I've been saying."
I don't think that's *all* you've been saying. It is a distinct difference between listening to (and being swayed by) the player base over the years, and taking sudden action based on the reviews of The Order.
A general reply to y'all:
If they've taken note of any particular game – and I'm not convinced they have – my bet is then that they've rather paid attention to the reviews of the latest Tomb Raider. That's a relatively recent release of a more similar nature, and that game received excellent reviews.
I just don't see any reason for someone like ND to take too much note of the reception of a mediocre linear game. I don't see them as playing in the same league.
I'd also like to add that this opnenness in games is not a very recent trend. Looking back I'd say it was a trend that ongoing throughout the entire PS3 generation – ergo it was there during all the Uncharteds.
Heck, I'd even go as far as claiming this trend kicked off with GTA3. I'm sure someone will even point further back.
But it leaves the question open: If it isn't because of The Order, then what *is* the reason for this delay?
If I am to speculate: Maybe it is as simple as the next Lara adventure is due exclusively to Xbone next xmas – so it would be a *direct* competitor between the two platforms. Maybe Sony didn't want to take the risk of losing that battle. Maybe. *shrugs*
Last edited by Beamboom on 3/15/2015 8:42:23 AM
Beam:
Or maybe it's that they really did need more time. Nothing was ever set in stone for this game. They've continuously said that wanted to hit 60fps, and maybe the extra time will allow them too.
I don't get how people can complain that developers are not spending enough time on development, and would rather a company take the extra time to polish them up. But then when one of the most anticipated titles gets a delay it's not because they need more time but because of competition or because of bad reviews or treatment a different type of game receives. Give me a break. This type of stuff pisses me off about the gaming community.
This isn't a poor development team and underdogs comments about them losing certain individuals is just looking, rather begging for an excuse. This is ND, who by all means has delivered to consumers a great experience through most of their existence. They are not going to release a game they are not satisfied with internally.
They have said in the documentary about TLOU that they don't really care what other people are doing. They just focus on their product so that they deliver the best experience.
So do half the pop-artists out there.
So much defence for the Order, let the game die, it was a half-hearted attempt at a AAA game. Uncharted is what gives me hope; that some developers only care about getting their vision across regardless of the shortcuts others take (ubisoft, square, and any Cod developer).