Ben-DutkaThis has gone far enough.
I am a huge proponent of the advancement of video game journalism. I knew, as we all knew, that gaming and women clashed for decades.
There are indeed examples of sexism (both against females and males, I'd like to add) and I can point to several examples of how video games haven't been remotely fair when including members of the fairer sex in such adventures. I can also point to many examples of developers taking the necessary strides to fix the problem, and just how far this industry has come in the past five or six years.
Anybody who wants to produce intellectual, thought-provoking articles on this topic, and anyone who wants to delve beneath the surface and ask challenging questions, has my immediate respect. For the record, Anita Sarkeesian has never been one of these people. I was three minutes into one of her first YouTube videos when I said to myself, "Well, she's doing this for attention and she's bound to get it. She doesn't actually know anything about the industry and she refuses to do an ounce of real research but hey, that's why she's on YouTube and not writing for the Times or the Atlantic."
And of course, such publications would never have produced print versions of her presentations because they're poorly presented and critically flawed. She's not a journalist. She's not a doctor. She's not an expert on the subject at hand. She's just another YouTube personality who got precisely what she wanted: Attention. She was angling for that from the start and every time she's confronted with the legitimate facts, she ducks and evades. Eventually, we should all just accept that she hasn't really produced anything worth discussion.
This isn't helping gaming. It just tells other journalism professionals that someone like Sarkeesian can be one of our most visible – and supposedly important – personalities. Well, that's about all she is: A personality. I don't begrudge her one ounce of the fame and attention she has received but I won't for one second believe she had any other ulterior motive.
Some of these chicks need a good solid backhand to the face
You're an idiot.
y is he just curious as to ur reasoning
your mother's an idiot
i dont see anything wrong with what he said other than using "chicks". he shouldve generalized it, use these people instead. it should be common sense that context is important but sadly most dont have that sense. the comment was on an article about people who try to get attention under the banner of something important but lack the facts to argue their cause. in this case, anita. ive seen her videos. i did because i wanted to see if she could prove her case intelligently. this wasnt the case. it was a one sided lecture on feminism in games with only things that support her arguement at the same time ignoring important facts that go against her arguement. i believe she made it sound that females are always the damsel in distress and there are no strong female characters but clearly ignoring facts such as samus is a strong female character. when faced with such clear facts, she just dodges them. i would watch videos just to see if it could start an intelligent conversation but those videos are clearly targeting that specific audience.
if thinking that people who present a case where facts are ignored in order to get themselves attention deserves to get hit, then i guess im an idiot as well.
Exactly John, well said.
And no John, you're not an idiot. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that analysis. I have seen this as well, she is only using points that support her arguments. We all know that's not how this works.
You don't go into doing your research that supports what you say. It's completely backwards. And when you point this out to her, she blocks you.
I understand that attacks shouldn't happen to the persons character for having an opinion, but her "Facts" or "Research" don't hold up. Opinions and Ideas should be challenged and fact checked to make sure they withstand the analysis and rigorous testing to back it up. But this isn't the case here.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 11/1/2014 1:47:11 AM
Facts aren't ignored, though John. Everything she brings up absolutely happens. I don't even believe she's purposely ignoring anything. I just think, for the most part, the issues are far more complex than she realizes.
As for Souljah's comment, I know how to make it better, too. As you say, instead of "chicks", say "these people". Then replace "of these" with "times I feel like". Then replace "backhand to the face" with "debate with an intellectual. So not me".
My reaction was the same as Frosty's, actually.
@Clamedeus
Her facts do hold up. They absolutely happen all the time. What she doesn't have is her own research. Just experience based on a small sample size.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 11/1/2014 1:55:42 AM
whatever helps you sleep at night big boy
Why is this guy even at this site?
im not arguing about whether theres sexism though. i know there is. its has been a male oriented industry buy landscape has definitely changed. sure there are more females in gaming but you really cant blame creators like shigeru miyamoto because they started way back. when ask why his games are male oriented, his answer was he never really thought about it. he justcreated fun games to play. as for the community, cant really do anything about that. its the internet, idiots are everywhere protected by anonymity. i tried going on pshome one time and used a girl avatar. guy started hitting on me but got mad after he found out im i guy. i thought the name john overmy avatars head was a dead give away. then they started hitting on my friend while she tells me that their talking trash about me. in battlefield 3 too, guy hits on my friend while he talked trash about me not knowing that she was telling me everything. point is, idiots will be idiots, its the same everywhere, not just gaming.
my biggest problem with her is that she brings up a subject that would incite a discussion but as clam said, she would ban/delete intelligent comments that goes against her. her presentation of the material is completely onesided, omitting certain facts that goes against her. while watching her videos, i found myself correcting her with actual facts i know. the video she put up was aimed towards the people who dont know much about videogames. which means she can omit stuff to make her case and noone would know other than the people who are involved in videogames, and of course those passionate about gaming will get pissed. so yeah, i have a problem with her presentation, not the cause. im always open to have an intelligent conversation but if youre going to approach me with half assed information, its not worth bothering with. when i said youre, its more of a general thing and not aimed at a certain person.
souljah: Sounds to me like you're the one who needs a smack.
tell me how naughty i am while you do it
Nice to see there are at least a dozen PSXE readers who actually think a woman needs to be hit for having an opinion.
@Bio
I am thoroughly shocked, actually. And disappointed.
I'm not shocked at all. Sexist articles about sexism tend to attract sexists.
Didn't really find the article exist, personally.
I think she had every right to share her opinions on female representation in gaming, regardless of whether or not she's active in gaming. Whether or not I agree with everything she says is irrelevant. I think this article reeks of as much attention seeking as is claimed against her. The great things about opinions is that you're as entitled to yours as much as she is of her's and I am of mine. Because you don't agree with her you're dismissing her opinion as attention seeking. In my opinion, you're attention seeking.
Last edited by frostface on 10/31/2014 10:23:38 PM
Great that you pop out of the forums long enough to have a problem with something I wrote. Really, what else is new?
You didn't even bother to read the article, or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Never once did I say I disagreed with what she said. In fact, that's not even the point. The point is that she presented reports on facts with little to no research, and acted like an authority on the subject of sexism in the gaming industry with seemingly zero knowledge.
Nothing what she says is her opinion. These aren't op-eds. They're reports. She's making what she believes are factual statements; these are not opinions. They're basically news features. That's how she presents them and that's how we're supposed to take them. And in that respect, they're terrible; beyond amateur-ish. That's the problem I have. And you'd know that had you read a single word I wrote, or had any inkling what an "opinion" actually is.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/1/2014 12:15:57 AM
"I think she had every right to share her opinions on female representation in gaming, regardless of whether or not she's active in gaming."
You're some kind of moron aren't you
I hope you don't vote for politicians.
Frosty I see what you're saying, you think Ben is riding the coat tails of this personality to get some press. The thing is, whatever is in the news is fair game for editorial content.
As far as attention seeking goes, I think it's a fair assessment that (I've now done some research) she doesn't seem to have even the most basic knowledge of the industry as we do, her motives of being seen by using a bandwagon speech are more plausible than any consideration that she is an informed commentator that anyone should pay attention to.
Once again Ben I think you've missed my point but I think World gets it.
I didn't miss your point. You said some garbage about me disagreeing with her; the standard BS crap about me not letting people voice their opinions.
It's not opinion. Whether I agree with her or not is completely irrelevant.
You don't have to be a "HARDCORE GAMER" to see the obvious, that this industry is horribly misogynist. Sarkeesian doesn't need some in depth knowledge of videogames to notice that most female characters are grossly underdressed and more often than not simply objects to be won.
i kinda thought that might be the case but i wasn't sure so thanks ben for the new info
happy gaming
I have a couple thoughts…
On the issue of how women are treated online in gaming communities, both over the headset and on many webpages, she has always had a point. Even on this website, you don't need to look any further than the very first comment on this article to see how easy it is to locate a complete idiot. On the other hand, you don't need to look any further than the first responder to see that most people know they're idiots. But Ben, even you in a recent article bemoaned the gaming community. Beamboom had faith it could change in a weird sort of role reversal with you, but you have to admit it's easy to find.
On the issue of sexy characters in games, I find her approach to be a bit of a waste of breath unless you're willing to address sexism in movies, music, pop culture, and basically everything else about our culture that over-glorifies impossible sexuality. People would argue in her defense saying at least someone is doing it, but I don't think it comes close to understanding the core principle at stake here. I also think it's infuriating to talk about female sexuality in games without also identifying overly perfect male prototypes we see in all games. Admit it… Nathan Drake is one fine piece of man meat! Hubba hubba, amirite, ladies and an estimated 5% of the male population? Or even worse… overly muscular and impossibly agile structures in gears of war characters.
Finally, as for criticizing her for "wanting attention", I don't really buy into that too much… I haven't commented much here recently because I just started up my own business. I got into it out of a really good place… wanting to provide recreational programming for youth. (It's not fair that you can't play a sport you love, for example, just because you couldn't make a cut.) Obviously, I'm advertising, interviewing on radio, and basically doing my best to get the word out there. And yeah… I'm totally doing it to get noticed so my business can be as successful as possible. But that still doesn't undermine the original reason of why I got into it. (I started going in as a non-profit, but there's so much infuriating red tape, if I take a business approach I can actually control the programming.) I think you can apply the same theory to her… I fully believe she's passionate about it for the right original reasons. But she'd be daft to not also use it to make her place in the world.
And I wouldn't hold that against her for a second. We all do that, and anyone not passionate about what we are can see that in us easily.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 10/31/2014 11:44:30 PM
I dunno who she is or anything but I assume she's being stupid about the portrayal of women in games.
Ya know what, people buy a fantasy product because it delivers to them what they want, which is often oversexualized images and characters.
That's the product for consumption, it isn't the business of game developers to equalize or normalize portrayal of the genders fairly unless that is their artistic goal.
I saw her tonight on the Colbert Report. lol. I've heard her before, too.
Basically, she's tackling a huge concept under the itty-bitty wing of gaming in regards to how female characters are perceived. A little naive for the very reasons you stated.
The one area she has a point about, though, is the community at large online while playing or commenting on the internet. But that's nothing new, and even that I find hard to believe is only in gaming.
@Underdog15
It's definitely not just in gaming, you can see this in Anime, Manga, Movies, TV Shows. Heck, even Music. Basically anything really that has a community.
You can get a very bad community in any environment. The few, but very loud minority seem to be the only ones who get the spot light, but people never focus on the good that comes in that community.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 11/1/2014 1:36:29 AM
She is being stupid. I didn't watch any of her after having a look at one of the first vids.
@Clamedeus
"It's definitely not just in gaming, you can see this in Anime, Manga, Movies, TV Shows. Heck, even Music. Basically anything really that has a community."
That's exactly what I said above.
"You can get a very bad community in any environment. The few, but very loud minority seem to be the only ones who get the spot light, but people never focus on the good that comes in that community."
Yeah, but that's no fun. :p Sometimes, I do wonder how small the minority is… or if it's even a minority.
@Banky
It's unfortunate you aren't able to 'eat the meat and spit out the bones' so to speak.
You can blame social media for that.
@Underdog
Sorry to sound up myself but I actually like to do that often with things. Her material was not enjoyable for me to sit through.
her material isnt supposed to be entertaining though banky, its to get people to start a discussion. but sadly she failed in that respect because she shut down people who actually had good points against her view. basically closing the discussion before it even starts. which makes me think that shes just riding the wave to get attention. ban and delete the people who are just attacking her character, thats fine.
I like anime because of its portrayal of women. It is presented in the same manner of British gothic and romantic fiction of the 18th century, a once popular form of novel I enjoy. That's the product, a fantasy world where sh*t ain't fair, it's appealing to a certain mind. Granted most people think that kind of mind is sick but whatever, I never cared what people think of me anyway.
Using gaming as the whipping boy is my problem. So it's alright for Beyonce to be a feminist by showing her ass everywhere I turn but I can't enjoy a jiggle from Kasumi?
The treatment of females by fully voiced online communities and multiplayer games is a real thing that could use a discussion, I'll give her that.
BOOBIES!
Basically, she makes a few good points, but lacks the ability to address the core root of any of the issues.
Also, while some points are good, none of them are her own ideas. That's the part that bugs me about her. This whole "gamergate" crap makes people think this is some sort of new issue….
I've always wanted to know Ben's POV on this matter. For some reason my brain cannot comprehend WTF is going on, I read ARS Technicas's articles, which seem to be on the other side, and this still goes over my head. It's like I start reading this and my brain shuts down in fear that I might catch the ignorance virus or something. All everyone else seems to be focusing on is how she is always getting threats left and right.
She's hardly the only amateur on YouTube. I rarely see anything but.
Oh, she's a feminist author or something. I really should stop commenting on local American heroes I've never heard of before. 🙂
She's not an American Hero. Our heroes are in dark rooms with PTSD considering suicide. We need to change this nation to something more like the greatest generation.
Exactly what World said.
Racism, fear, blindly following government, and the wholesale killings of non combatants? Greatest generation? Bah. We've yet to reach that in this country.
In this day and age anyone can get PTSD, just like how people who cant get over some mundane thing suffer from OCD, etc. Yep, this is the world we come to live in…
Kid: It was known as the "greatest generation" because of certain philosophies and ideals, despite the problems. These are philosophies and ideals we desperately need to embrace again, by the way, if we have any interest in halting the REGRESSION we're currently experiencing.
"In this day and age anyone can get PTSD, just like how people who cant get over some mundane thing suffer from OCD"
Just…. wow…. Where's that facepalm emoji….
I wanna be a video game personality.
Here's some easy steps;
1)Take an aspect of pop culture (video gaming) and apply a strong ideology to it.
2)share your opinions online (for quicker results portray your opinions as facts)
3)wait for angry public decent
4)when public decent is at an all time high, show as many people as possible how horrible everyone is being to you. (if you have a patreon or kickstarter nows the time to tell people about it)
5)await sympathy and press coverage from journalists with similar ideologies/agendas.
6)let that snowball roll, baby!
If anyone's offended, this is sarcasm (and a great deal of cynicism) and was not an intended attack on anyone's sensibilities.
haha, thanks man that was funny. I do appreciate the folks who like my articles but it'd be fun to have that notoriety (like this sad woman finagled but I'd want to be legitimate)
Actually I have created a persona and was working on a site for it until I got this new job. I gotta finish that sucker, it really is a fun site project.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 11/1/2014 12:20:14 PM
I'm not sure how anyone can claim with any degree of certainty what her actual motivations were. Like all of us, she wants her opinion heard and to feel they matter, but one cannot take that and make the claim that her entire argument is disingenuous. Seems like a bit of envy is running rampant through the boy's club that is video game journalism.