Well, you can do some compare-and-contrast research if you so choose; we had the rumored Xbox 720 specs a few days ago and now, a new set of supposedly leaked PS4 specs have been uncovered.

As revealed at Kotaku , Sony's next console will boast a controller with a rear touchpad, but it's a little different than other sources previously reported . It seems that information was actually about taking the rear touchpad found on the PlayStation Vita and implementing it on the PS4 controller, although there's no confirmation of the rumored biometric support. It's still a possibility, of course.

There's also evidence that the new gamepad will boast a "Share" button, which sort of implies social networking functionality, and we can also expect an upgraded version of the Sixaxis motion control. Oh, and Dual Shock 3 and old Sixaxis controllers should be compatible with the new console, too. As for the PS4 dev kits, they're apparently featuring 8GB of system memory, 2.2GB of video memory, an AMD Bulldozer eight core processor, and an AMD R10XX GPU. Plus, there's the Blu-Ray drive, four USB 3.0 ports, 2 Ethernet ports, and a 160GB hard drive. …let's just assume that the retail versions boast a much, much bigger HDD.

So what say you?

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Snaaaake
Snaaaake
8 years ago

Is there a possibility of the PS4 coming loaded with SSD instead of HDD?

Norrin Radd
Norrin Radd
8 years ago

I think cost is the big issue there. These things are going to be pricey with little to no profit margin (I'm guessing), so no real need to include an SSD if it grants no great performance advantage to a traditional HDD, IMO.

Cesar_ser_4
Cesar_ser_4
8 years ago

SSDs wouldn't do consoles much benefit since it uses the disc rather than the HDD to start up a game. SSDs are more for OS where you have more demanding programs. Besides if we still have game installs next gen those things would be so impractical.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Cesar: That only *used* to be true. More and more games require an install nowadays, a tendency that will only increase with the size of the games. And all those games would benefit from the speed of a SSD.

But it will not happen – cause SSD is too expensive yet. We need to replace the HD ourselves.


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/24/2013 7:09:56 AM

___________
___________
8 years ago

possible, but highly unlikely.
SSDs are FAR too expensive!
cheapest SSD on the market ATM at a reasonable size , 120GB, is over 200 bucks!
if you were to buy a 500GB+ HDD which you will need for next gen games, your looking at over a grand!
SSHDD is the future, part SSD part HDD.
speed almost of a SSD, but the storage of a HDD.
i hope $ony offers a small flash storage for the OS and other software features, but for the games themselves, the files which are quite large, will have to be restricted to a SSHDD.
hopefully ps4 games will be on flash media though, thus eliminating the issue.
highly unlikely though, i havent seen any flash media cards high enough storage for ps4 games, let alone at a reasonable cost!

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

SSDs still suffer from wear issues, an SSD/HDD hybrid is a better way to go in the future. But at the end of the day with current consumer grade flash memory, an HDD is still your best bet.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

The issue with the SSD wear'n'tear is not that relevant for a games console, Highlander.
Each cell can be erased around ten thousand times before they start being unreliable, and in practise that means you have to write and erase tens of gigabytes every single day for it to become unstable after some *years*.

I'd never insert a SSD as storage device in a file server, but in a gaming console? Sure.


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/24/2013 2:45:10 PM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

BeamBoom,

Any use of virtual memory that involves paging will hammer an SSD.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

I'm sorry Highlander, but that is just a widespread tech myth. At the very least it is debatable unless you have a system that is criminally underpowered on physical memory.

A pagefile/swap disc do not get "hammered" on a modern system. And remember we talk about wear from erase&write here, not reading. The read:write ratio to a page file is like 50:1 or thereabouts.

But you never believe me so go and google it, just avoid user forums. You will see that on the contrary, serious sources *recommend* to put swap on SSD.


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 2:17:47 AM

Geobaldi
Geobaldi
8 years ago

120GB SSD over $200? Sorry but that's just wrong. You can easily get one of those for around $100 or just above that. I have one in my PC just to run Windows 7 with a regular HDD for everything else. You can go to Newegg or Amazon and even see that they're cheaper then that.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

No, I never do believe you because it's a legitimate concern. SSDs have a finite life, there is no getting away from that. swapfiles are written and re-written with a high degree of frequency. Half decent wear leveling can help, but in the end it simply accelerates the demise of the drive. Placing small, frequently read files on an SSD for speed is a great idea, and installing the OS and frequently used apps to one is a good use, but that pagefile does better on a HDD with decent caching, or better yet, go without a swapfile and use lots more RAM.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Everything has a finite life, and usage of *anything* affects the life span of that object.

But instead of just insisting on being right in your traditional fashion, just google it and read for yourself. Read about the write frequency of a swap file, and life expectancy of a SSD drive used for paging.


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 2:28:52 AM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

*sigh*
Yes, Mr Beamboom sir. Obviously your tendency to be always right and tell everyone else they're wrong hasn't altered one jot. I'm not gonna argue with you as I have better things to do with my time – that don't include googling material I already know.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Funny how you don't seem to realize that by replying like that you do exactly what you accuse me of.

I'm just trying to tell you something! I don't ask you to argue, I don't even ask you to trust me. In fact I ask you not to: Look it up!


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 12:34:01 PM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

Funny how you don't see the irony in that – which was the point.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

Lifespan of SSDs;

this article details a thermal annealing process that raises the number of write cycles from 10K to 100M or more. Your average HDD has a mean time between failure that accommodates millions of write operations, SSDs currently do not.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/03/macronix_thermal_annealing_extends_life_of_flash_memory/

Here's a review of a Samsung consumer grade SSD from November;

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/review_samsung_ssd840_pro_and_ssd840_storage/page2.html

Note the following quote;
"The 840, on the other, hand uses the company’s 21nm Toggle three-bit per cell TLC (Triple Level Cell) NAND and is the first drive to market using this type of NAND Triple Level Cell NAND (TLC) Triple Level Cell or TLC NAND is an alternative to shrinking the NAND die to try and get a better density by increasing the number of bits per cell. Instead of using 1-bit per cell (SLC) or 2-bits per cell as in normal MLC NAND, TLC uses 3-bits per cell.

SLC has just two voltage levels to check, so random reads are very fast while MLC, with its four voltage levels, takes twice as long. TLC has eight voltage levels, so it takes twice as long again, so random reads take longer and, potentially, so does any programming.

But that’s not the only drawback with TLC featured in the basic SSD 840, the elephant in the room is NAND endurance. The actual P/E (program/erase) figures for TLC are not available yet, but as a ball park figure, it’s thought to somewhere between 1,000 and 5,000 cycles compared to the 5,000 – 10,000 of MLC or the 100,000 cycles of hyper expensive SLC NAND flash."

Yes, you read that correctly, between 1,000 and 5,000 cycles of life. that 100,000 cycle NAND is "hyper expensive". So, who wants to trust a device with a 1000-5000 write cycle lifetime for their game console?

Wear leveling is absolutely crucial, as is the quality of the NAND Flash memory used. Since the best is cherry picked by enterprise products and the best WLC is sold at a premium.

So, what was it you were saying about SSDs again?


Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 1/25/2013 2:38:53 PM

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Thank you for returning to topic. Now let's dig into the juicy stuff!

In regards to the hardware, let's avoid using the cheapest *or* most expensive hardware we can find as examples, can we agree on that? We need to at least talk about the same thing.

I'd say a regular, standard, plain SSD today tackles roughly 10.000 cycles a cell. That covers the vast majority of the common, mid-priced drives out there. And I have read some interesting calculations for such a drive in regards to this much dreaded "SSD wear issue" that really puts things into perspective.

But first of all we need to talk about how relevant this is. Cause there are two factors here; One is how much write/erase a SSD can handle, the second is how much write/erase there is to speak of in the first place!

And that leads us to the crux of the matter here; The virtual memory.

I do not mean to be patronizing now, forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but a virtual memory is not simply an "extension of the physical memory", sort to speak. Many believe it is.
So the swap file is *not* subject to the same degree of read/write operations as physical ram, not by a long shot – not even the same ballpark!

No OS will assign memory addresses with a heavy read/write load over to the secondary storage unless the machine is so *choked* with work that it is about to grind to a halt.

In other words, I suspect you might be overestimating the "hammering" the swap file causes to the drive.

Then it is the question of how the system in question (the PS4) is designed. Here we talk about a very "lightweight" system, specialized for one purpose only: To run games as smooth as possible.

And that takes us to a very interesting question:

How much load is put on a pagefile on a game console system? Will most game developers even leave memory handling to the OS *at all*? I seriously doubt it!

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that I doubt that virtual memory is of much use on the PS4 – if at all. And if so, that renders this whole discussion dead cause then we are left with only very light, simple and long lasting usage of the SSD drive.


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 5:22:07 PM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

You can say 10,000 write cycles all you like, but that's not true in the real world. Consumer grade devices don't have that level of durability – as you can see from the review I linked to. Theya re also not cheap. I have a sale promotion in my inbox today selling a 128GB SSD for marginally less than $1 per GB. fast, low power and reliable HDDs can be had for as little as $0.20c per GB if not less. The odds of there being a sizeable SSD in a consumer electronics device instead of a HDD are very small, if for no other reason than the SSD is 4-5 times more expensive for the same capacity. Combine that with the simple fact that SSDs do not have an average of 10,000 write cycles before failure, it depends on the type of NAND memory. There is an interesting analysis of the TLC NAND cells used in the Samsung SSD I linked, it suggests that the number of write cycles before failure begin to occur is actually as low as 1000, 10% of what you claim. The same article points out that Samsung makes all the components in the drive and can therefore cherry pick the best quality parts for their own drive. Which makes you wonder how durable the memory the don't use themselves is.

At this point, FLASH memory is still to vulnerable to wearing out and too expensive compared to spinning platters.

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Ok then we are stuck on the cycles discussion for now. I stand by my number on *mid priced* disks based on what I have read (I'm not just picking the number out of thin air) but I need to get back to you on that.
And regardless, I'm not sure how relevant it is in this particular discussion (SSD in a gaming console), for the reasons mentioned in my latest post.

In regards to the price there never was a discussion. SSD *is* much more expensive per GB, noone dispute that. It's not a topic. You pay extra for a dramatical increase in speed. Your choice.

That leaves us with the virtual ram. You say that it will hammer the drive. I very much doubt it will. I believe it is hardly used – if at all.

And then, if that is the case and when *all* is taken into account we got a system that is pretty light on the drive load and seems to be *perfect* for SSD (mainly read, little save) and should last you just as long as a HDD. It will only give you the benefits of a much faster drive – although at a cost.

In fact, this whole discussion about SSD reminds me a lot about the debate about how overclocking a CPU affect the lifespan of the CPU – it becomes highly theoretical cause you'll probably upgrade the CPU long before it happens anyway.

(hey is that your avatar from WKC? It looks WKC'ish!)


Last edited by Beamboom on 1/26/2013 6:14:20 AM

wolfsinner
wolfsinner
8 years ago

Sorry to jump in on this conversation.
Beamboom, virtual memory isn't what you seem to think it is. Virtual Memory isn't just an extension of the RAM, virtual memory is an abstraction given by the OS to processes.
So swap memory and virtual memory aren't the same thing. Swap memory is a means through which virtual memory is achieved.
And swap memory is also used for caching.

When processes commute, it is impossible for you to predict for how long they'll remain in RAM, or if they're even completely loaded in RAM. So you can't really say that swap memory is hardly used. In a gaming environment though, I can assure you that it will most likely be written to quite often.
And while programmers do manage memory, the OS ultimately decides where that memory ends up, regardless of where the programmer wants it to be, that's what virtual memory is: an abstraction of a fully addressable memory space given to a process, managed by the OS.
Actually, if programmers could manage physical memory directly, that would be a security flaw, and security is a pillar of writing a good OS.

I would also like to know what a "serious source" is to you. lol

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

That's kind of what I assumed they meant about the touch pad controller thing. I can't even keep up with all the tech sh*t man; not even gonna try. I'll just rely on Temjin to tell me what's better now that Highlander has gone insane.

Cesar_ser_4
Cesar_ser_4
8 years ago

he…he…he what now?

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

He had a breakdown when we tried to convince him (as a JRPG lover) to give Ni No Kuni a chance even though Namco Bandai published it. He hates Nacmo Bandai for their treatment of the WKCII online community. He wen off raving into the night and never returned.

Cesar_ser_4
Cesar_ser_4
8 years ago

Seems a little too extreme for someone like Highlander. But then again…

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

Thank you so much Worlds for making it perfectly clear why returning here would be of no purpose for me. I left because I refuse to be 'pitied' by some people who should know better than to patronize someone. I did not go off raving into the night, I simply said good bye, and stopped posting.

Returning would appear to be a pointless exercise since you're happy to demean me in my apparent absence.

As for what you just said about me, you can either apologize here and now, or screw off. I've never had a hostile word with you, so I have no idea why you feel able to write such trash about me.

Killa Tequilla
Killa Tequilla
8 years ago

Yea, was wondering what happened to Highlander? So why did he get mad again?

Edit: Highalnder, returning serves a purpose. How else will I understand those specs? I used to read your posts..

I once was attacked by the PSXcommunity too 🙂 but I didn't let that get to me.


Last edited by Killa Tequilla on 1/24/2013 12:24:21 AM

BikerSaint
BikerSaint
8 years ago

Highlander,
Well I just wanted to say that I have always appreciated your posts & I certainly miss not seeing any of them posted here anymore.

AcHiLLiA
AcHiLLiA
8 years ago

Here also, it was nice reading ur posts.
And also _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _, it's the internet, don't take all this seriously. Keeping ur personal things in order is all that matters.


Last edited by AcHiLLiA on 1/24/2013 12:58:02 AM

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
8 years ago

I obviously missed something.

Cesar_ser_4
Cesar_ser_4
8 years ago

Ben, I even thought about asking you if you had banned him since he disappeared without a trace.

Dukemz_UK
Dukemz_UK
8 years ago

Highlander, please return. I really appreciated your informative and intelligent posts at PSXE. Adversity is part of life. Rise above it

ZenChichiri
ZenChichiri
8 years ago

Man I want Highlander to return as well. He's the only other person who understands my Japanese Vita game fixation and my desire to import everything. Sorry that ill words were spoken, but there are many people here that didn't cross swords with you, and would love to have you back!

Solid Fantasy
Solid Fantasy
8 years ago

Come back Highlander! You were part of the awesome that made up this haven of a gaming site.

CrusaderForever
CrusaderForever
8 years ago

@Ben, me too!

Here's how I look at it. You have always been a fair poster. That is what is needed on this blog. Not sure what happened. I do know you use to post a lot which showed me you really enjoyed it. If I were you I wouldn't give up something you enjoy because of some other person that attacked you. It's the internet and it happens all the time. Look at __________ he's like the village bicycle for getting attacked. Warranted because he likes it. Anyway, I to would like to see you come back. Like I have said in the past you are really a good read.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

I never had a hostile word toward you either Highlander, quite the contrary in fact, I have nothing to apologize for as you seem to have lost all sense of levity.

Karosso
Karosso
8 years ago

Come on guys! Make nice!
This is a really bad time to be denied the expertise Highlander brings to this site!!!
Please come back High! We really miss your posts. Just ignore the people you have an issue with, like I do with "no name" LOL

Temjin001
Temjin001
8 years ago

hey, big guy, I apologize for my rude comment =)

slugga_status
slugga_status
8 years ago

I'm lost here too. Was wondering where Highlander was..just figured he had some life things to handle. Not the same looking at spec rumors without Highlander breaking it down completely and Temjin giving his feedback on it.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

Temjin, that's all I needed.

Worlds, when you say "X has gone insane.", "He had a breakdown" and "He wen(t) off raving into the night" about someone, you do have something to apologize for, those comments are not within any normal of levity.

For any and all who care to read this. When we post in this community/site (or any online community), the only things people know or see are our screen names, avatars and words. Words matter. They matter more in this form of interaction than most simply because they are 100% of the communication. When you have been a long standing member of a community and one or more other long standing members of the same community use words that are hurtful or insulting, they have an impact. There is an element of trust that is lost.

It's not as simple as saying "It's just the internet". I understand why people say that sometimes because with the anonymity of the Internet, that is often the case. But, here at PSXExtreme, we built a community, lots of us are long standing posters/commentators here. It's that community of long standing posters that define the tone and mood here. That's why it's not 'just' the Internet.

All that said. Today is not the best day for me to return to posting here. I have a pet (in real life) who is gravely ill, and we are not sure if she will make it. So, I will thank everyone for their kind words, apologize for being sensitive to the opinions of other community members, and leave the matter alone. Closed.

Regarding PS4 specs. 4GB of GDDR5 memory isn't bad at all, people complaining it is not enough are making me laugh since most of us work on PCs with 2GB or so of RAM. Not to mention that the Dev kits apparently have separate memory pools for system and graphics, so there is no reason why the final spec could not also have system and graphics memory. Based on the Dev kit specs and other rumors that would be something like 4GB GDDR5 system and 1GB GDDR5 (presumably) for Video.

PS4's OS footprint is only 512MB, the Durango is rumored to take a ridiculous 3GB of system RAM for it's OS. Considering Microsoft's track record, 3GB for the OS suggests it's Windows based (surprise surprise for MS making an x86 system…). Would anyone here have picked windows 8 as the core OS for a game console? I wouldn't. Durango is obviously using a unified memory architecture again with it's large 8GB pool. If that's true then I'd guess that of the 5GB left, it will be partitioned roughly 1GB for viedo and 4GB for system, which is about the same as the memory config that the PS4 will likely have.

Bulldozer isn't a bad chip, Intel stole the limelight, but even if Bulldozer isn't core for core, clock for clock as fast as i7, there are 8 cores – which is plenty fast. The APU or GPGPU or whatever you want to call this fusion helps because you have multiple GPU resources in the system as well. I have to read up on the rumored GPU for the PS4, but it seems that Sony is trying to put lots of raw power in the box.

Finally, the GPU-like compute unit that the rumored PS4 specification features could be anything. However, the optimist in me hopes that it's an enhanced version of the SPURS co-processor that Toshiba made by stripping away the PPE and cache on the CellBE to leave just the SPEs, SPE local memory and their communication bus. Toshiba sold that as a GPU and even used it on at least one model of TV and some BD or HD-DVD players. Optimistically, if that unit was inside the PS4, Sony could easily emulate the CellBE and the modern AMD/ATI GPU would be capable of emulating RSX giving you a virtualized PS3…possibly. That's what the optimist in me says…

Sorry to trouble everyone, normal service will resume once life settles down.

telly
telly
8 years ago

Was wondering where Highlander had been… must have missed all that.

Killa Tequilla
Killa Tequilla
8 years ago

Thats TheHighlander I know 🙂

Simcoe
Simcoe
8 years ago

@Highlander Glad to hear the absence is temporary, but sorry to hear about your pet.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

Still, peculiarities in your character had arisen. I do not know you so I cannot actually make those judgements you unfortunately took negatively but removing your avatar and name while continuing to post some uncharacteristic attitudes towards dissenting opinions was more than worrisome. I did not mean to harm, only to coax you out as I had a suspicion you had not entirely left us. In the last, at least, I'm glad I was successful no matter the damage to my reputation.


Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 1/24/2013 2:07:39 PM

Clamedeus
Clamedeus
8 years ago

Sorry to hear about your pet Highlander, I know how that feels as well I lost a close pet to me.

I am glad you're not gone from here, you would truly be missed by me and others who appreciate your posts, and how you articulate it so people can understand it.

I hope all goes well for you friend.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
8 years ago

You're not scoring any points by using words like 'peculiarities' to describe my character. Real welcoming and constructive of you.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
8 years ago

Highlander: I would just like to add that if you had had such difficulties with certain members, you should've come to me. I really had no idea why you left or what happened.

I think by now you know I have a vested interest in keeping our most valued members happy. And I'm very sorry about your pet; I hope everything turns out all right.

Cesar_ser_4
Cesar_ser_4
8 years ago

Don't know too much about it but it seems like a bit too much for a game console, that is if Sony wants to keep prices down.

thedaini
thedaini
8 years ago

I really hope those dev kit specs turn out to be true. Ever since the first set of leaked specs came out and showed the PS4 with less RAM than the next Xbox, I've been reading nothing but Xbox zombies immediately dismissing and putting down the PS4 saying the Xbox will be superior just because it has more RAM. Blind faith.

AcHiLLiA
AcHiLLiA
8 years ago

Hoping for a good price point.

wolfsinner
wolfsinner
8 years ago

While the Bulldozer was a general failure, I love the thing! The only reason it flopped was due to its very unique architectural design. It's well designed, and it is more accessible than the Cell.
This can only mean good things.
Getting games written specifically for this multi-threading beast will show its true potential, and make the PS4 shine.
I can only hope that Sony worked with AMD on reducing the heat that this thing produces, because commercial bulldozers tend to get a bit too hot, and consoles aren't exactly known for outstanding cooling ability.

I think that 8GB of RAM is a needless exaggeration. I'm almost sure we'll be seeing 4GB of ultra fast RAM (maybe GDDR5).

And I have never heard of this GPU series, but if it sports the new GCN architecture, then the PS4 has a strong chance of blowing MS out of the water this generation, again.
AMD has produced great technology these past few years, which unfortunately isn't fully/properly used on PCs due to desktop applications being inherently generic.
Still, there's no decent specific information on durango really.


Last edited by wolfsinner on 1/24/2013 12:30:56 AM

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