John-ShepardIt's no secret that video game publishers are none too happy with the used game market, as only the retailer reaps the benefits of pre-owned sales.
That's why we've seen various strides taken by game producers like EA, THQ, and Sony; you're all familiar with the Online Passes that are only included with new copies, right? That's to discourage you from buying a pre-owned copy, because the Pass costs $10 if you have to purchase it separately.
And we've heard rumors before that next generation, console manufacturers might want to completely eliminate even the possibility of playing used games. Now that rumor will start afresh, thanks to information obtained by a NeoGAF forumite citing a recent patent application that could be used for Sony's next-generation machine; it would presumably not allow the playing of used games.
Basically, an RFID ID would be stamped onto the new discs and track the usage history, thereby restricting each disc to playing on one console. Sony Computer Entertainment Japan filed the application last September, but let's not forget that this patent might only result in the restricting of some of the disc's features, such as online play. Yeah, the online pass thing again. And analysts have said it would be stupid for Sony or Microsoft to put out a console that couldn't play used products…not that that would necessarily stop them. They'll do what they want to do.
We'll just have to see what happens when the PS4 is officially announced.
r they crazy? u mean i can't play my friend's copy on my machine?thats insane
That is my first thought it seems this gen they have ruined side by side multiplayer by focusing online and with this you wont be even able to take a game around a friends to play it seems like they don't want us to communicate at all.
Agreed. If this is true. Then i regretfully say that I will be swapping over to the dark side.
I'll keep buying used games for my PS3… Or… GASP!!! Actually buy some of those Microsoft exclusive games for this 360 I have sitting around unused.
I honestly don't even plan to upgrade if they pull a stunt like that. I have an INSANE backlog of unplayed games that'd keep me going for 2 or 3 generations, at the rate I play. Why should I give my hard earned cash for a new system I already know I won't be able to afford, when all Sony seems to want to do is milk me for every last dime I have.
No thanks. I'd rather play what I already own or build a PC instead.
I am not afraid to miss out on a few next gen games over an issue like this. This type of anti-consumer behavior can't be rewarded.
I doubt it's true.
But if it's true, then I won't be buying the PS4. I won't mind sticking to my PS3.
I dread the idea of having to reset my software library for a new platform. There are certain PSN only games I'd sort of like to think I'll have access to for a very long time…..
I might get a barrage of thumbs down for this, but I say this is a good thing and here is why.
I for one like my hobby and because of this fact, I don't mind, and actually look forward to supporting developers and publishers that continue to meet my demand as a consumer. I actually find myself getting excited about new versions of my favorite titles.
So if you enjoy new titles to play and experience you really should embrace this idea. With that said, I really do believe games should go back to the $50.00 price tag that we enjoyed back with the PS2 days. Especially with all the DLC that comes out these days.
Plus, anybody who shops at Gamestop knows of the markup they put on used games after they give you less than half of what you paid. All this does is balance the money in the used game market with more then one entity.
As I stated prior, I might be alone in this mindset but I really don't see it as a stupid idea.
Last edited by maxpontiac on 1/3/2013 11:10:12 PM
The flaw with your argument is not everyone is able to afford all the games they want, especially at the full price. This will surely lead to less sales and possibly higher piracy rates.
And with everything else going up in price, why should gamers be forced to buy all their games brand new?
On another note, if a PS4 gamer wants a game months or maybe a year or 2 after it came out, how can he play it when it isn't new anymore? Logically, he cannot buy one in store because they won't carry it.
I don't see the benefit overal to the industry of banning used games. It might help developers a little bit in the short run it will cause so many problems.
In all honesty I bet it will increase piracy majorly (atleast in multiplatform games).
I hope however it is not true.
Edit:
Don't forget the fact that by making used games not possible your taking a lot of the value out of a games and people will very very not likely buy it until its much cheaper since they can't get any of their money back later;
Last edited by firesoul453 on 1/3/2013 11:24:20 PM
We wouldn't be having this conversation if they just sold the used games themselves. Matter of fact, they probably would be worse than Gamestop. Not hating on any of them, matter of fact love them. These people are just doing business =/.
Anyways, I might not get a ps4 and I'll wait for the PS5 to roll around.
Also, since I know it is going to be brought up. We should be able to sell/trade/give away any digital items or software we own.
Nas Is Like –
I understand there is a flaw in belief system, it is why I suggested that the price of games come down. This entire system needs to work both ways. If the consumer has to change, the game company should as well.
As far as affecting sales, brother, if the people who buy games now only buy used games, the new sales numbers won't even see it.
Gamestop could still sell used games, it would just require an "online pass". This is what Ben mentioned in his second paragraph.
As far as not being able to afford it, I guess said individual must make a decision and prioritize their lives. I don't see the issue here. Life > Gaming.
Firesoul453 –
Think about it. The developer and publisher lost the opportunity to make money when someone goes in the Gamestop and purchases Uncharted 3 three months later because it was only 35 dollars.
If the publisher and developer recieve more money, the investors behind the big AAA titles may be more willing to part with their cash for a sequel. I believe Ubisoft mentioned how difficult it was releasing AAA titles all the time.
In this economy, these type of factors weigh heavily. I guess my belief comes from the fact that I generally only purchase new games.
Coffeya –
You raise some valid and very interesting points. Digital trade ins are an excellent idea.
HA!! Who are you fooling? I used to say the same thing. But once a title of your liking makes to the PS4, you, like many others will be all over it!!
Last edited by maxpontiac on 1/3/2013 11:40:11 PM
Unless new games are like $40, they are taking value away from the games by making us unable to sell them. That directly hurts the people willing to buy games new. This is just one problem it will cause.
Besides all the piracy it will create, it will be over complexed. . What about lending out the game? Or even playing it on another console of your own? The only way to solve those problems is to do something online. And that causes a whole mess of additional problems…
And there is something else that scares me even more.
What about the future? 10-20-50 years from then? What happends when the game is no longer supported and not sold anymore? Maybe there will be remakes but I know of several games I would galdy rebuy that will never be remade because of legal issues and publishers/developers being sold or closing down.
Sure it will help the developer in the short run if everyone has to buy a game new, but overall it will hurt an indutry. Do you think that books should only be sold new? (College textbooks?) DVD?
So far every industry that has pretty much gone digital for the most part (movies and music) have resulted in cheap streaming services where the developers (or artists or directors) only get a lump sum up front.
I know the movie (and tv) industry is fighiting netflix because it hurts new movies….
Since when does "New" mean "bought w/in X number of days of release? A "New" game (just like anything else that has a "Used" market) is simply the first time that perticular disk is being sold. You can still find "New" copies of Resistance: Fall of Man if you look on line… New usually goes along with "unopened" also… So you can still buy a "new" game when it drops in price…
I'm whole heartedly w/ Max on this one, if people just wait until they can find a cheap used copy then we will see(and possibly already are seeing) the down fall of game companies… No companies = no games = BAAAAAAD… I can't say there is a perfect solution to this problem, I can't say that there is even an imperfect solution, but something needs done cause we have already seen a slight fall in AAA games being produced, especial when the company producing a game of that quality isn't one of the big companies…
GameStop shares tumble 5% following Sony patent application…..
http://www.gamespot.com/news/gamestop-shares-tumble-following-sony-patent-application-6402008
What if you replace your console?
Exactly what I was thinking, given that I just retired my launch console last week and replaced it with a slim.
Easy. The same as when you buy movies on PSN. That is restricted to one console, too. You just call them up, say you got a new console, and they'll deactivate the last one and tie your PSN account to the new one. Easy peasy 3 minute phone call for me.
Problem is that this patten involved the tag being stored in the media itself. They won't have access to it to deactivate it.
Exactly, this patent sounds like it involves tagging the physical media not the console itself, so unless Sony is wiling to send out new discs…. I'm hoping that it's just a mistake and they mean the physical media ties itself to the PSN account rather than the console (hardware).
Aside, one of the last things I did to my retired ps3 was "deactivate" the console under the account settings before "activating" my new slim with my PSN account (no phone call required). Though I do believe you can have anywhere between 2 to 5 units (ps3 consoles) tied to your account, depending on the date when you purchased software from the PSN store.
Easy, sony makes an ad reminding you to buy that "extended warranty" in case you buy new hardware
Cesar,
That wouldn't even work 🙁 Sony does not even repair the console. It gives you another refurb.
I had a problem once and wanted to keep my saved games. Know what they told me?
Sorry there is no way for us to *repair* your PS3. You will be charged *repair* fees and we will send you a refurb unit of the same type… You will lose everything.
Basically I will never ask Sony for any type of hardware assistance EVER again lol.
while I expect things to go largely digital going forward this would effectively destroy a major reason to have physical media. While I do like digital well enough the biggest reason I still like physical is because there are no strings attached to playing the software. Now with something like this tech in place, we'd need online connectivity to some extent to even play our physical game. What if Sony burns and fails in the future. Would we be unable to run our software without servers on the other side to validate our software?
Last edited by Temjin001 on 1/3/2013 11:38:39 PM
I'm sure this would only be used for some content. But it won't be as effective as people think. Microsoft will want to do it to if it happens, or some version of it. And most devs will want their games protected. So it's not like we'll worry about people leaving sony or microsoft. If the games are being made for those systems, the gamers will come so long as it can't be offered anywhere else that does allow used games.
But yeah, I betcha it'll just result in a less annoying way of getting season passes, etc. Right now, going on PSN to find the season pass, do the transaction, etc. is a bit of a pain when you just want to play.
Another thought…
It's better for devs than season passes. Season passes allows for used sales to continue. But this way, people would have to buy the game new instead of the passes. Which means more market saturation, so the people that DO buy used and don't need online would get it even cheaper due to supply being so much greater than demand. It would injure the used game market and promote overall new sales.
See where I'm going from a strategic stand point here?
What if they are able to link a disc to a person's psn account, I'd be ok with that. It wouldn't bother me one bit, but if it was linked to only one console that would suck.
Sony wouldn't do it. If they did i wouldn't mind as much. The 10$ pass thing works great so i know they wouldn't do this. I have to buy 2 of every copy. I buy my gf the new one while buying myself the used one. It saves me money and i personally don't like not giving thr devs and publishers the money they deserve. I feel like every game should have an online pass. Hate me, but im not rich. I just respect the gaming world and feel devs and pubs deserve every penny…. Well not every dev 😉
Sony is being pretty greedy, if you ask me. As if they don't make money on their hardware, accessories and games as it is. How much money is enough money? Don't turn into Activision.
Based on Sony's business numbers over the past few years and their current stock price, I really wouldn't be saying "how much money is enough money."
dude, you havent been reading the papers?
$ony has been posting LOSSES for years now, so in other words no there not making enough money thats what a loss is, and havent been for a LONG time!
That's true. Sony has been posting record losses for years and has not posted a profit in nearly five years. They need cash. No doubt about it.
Though, to be fair, their gaming division has been their bright spot.
Stop charging such a markup, and actually compete with your competitors, and you might see your profit margins improve, Sony. Pricing your customers out in a bad economy is a SURE FIRE way to fail at turning a profit. Sony thinks that if you make used games worthless, everyone will buy new…
That's false. A FEW people above normal counts will buy new, but there will ALSO be a number of people who would NORMALLY buy it new and sell it later, deciding not to invest in the new title. If they can't resell it to recoup their expenses, then they will be less willing to take risks.
In the end, such a strategy drives initial sales into a flatter sales curve, rather than the sharp peaks that normally occur at launch. The launch will be weaker, due to the devaluation of the game. Sales will peak again at each price drop. I do not believe sales would actually increase. I think total numbers would decrease, and more people would simply choose to go without.
Even if you DO achieve higher sales at the tail run of a game's production, when prices are far decreased, it will not be at as high a price, so those sales will be devalued.
Sony does not understand how to function in a down economy…
OF COURSE they will have losses. No luxury is going to excel in this kind of economy, and that IS what gaming is… It's a luxury.
Ugh… no. This is a terrible idea. What if you own multiple PS3's? I could understand restricting the game to your PSN account. But even that's a pain in the ass now that Sony has limited us to only 2 activations. I have 3 PS3's (Office, Living Room, Basement). I have to constantly de-activate and re-activate consoles anytime I want to play digital content in a different room. It was great back when we had 5, no issues. But only 2 is BS.
Now there's a chance that I wont even be able to play disc games on my other consoles???
No. I refuse to believe that Sony will do this to us. It would put a serious dent in my unwavering loyalty…
I like my PS3. I really do. I believe it is an excellent gaming console. Great piece of hardware, Good games, Very reliable discs…
But…
Loyalty to Sony though…
HA!!!
Using the MCZ3001D chip for nearly 2 decades in their WEGA line from CRT days all the way to the Bravia line, knowing it's prone to failure, RootKits on PCs, and crippled music CDs, Killing Other OS, reducing activation counts, Tying your PS3 hard drive to the console, not your PSN account, Not allowing you to easily backup certain save data, proprietary music players, proprietary audio formats, proprietary services, proprietary memory sticks, even MORE proprietary memory cards for Vita (cause they aren't proprietary enough, even compared to their OWN proprietary memory)…
I could go on… But I do not need to. I trust Sony as far as I can throw the 36" WEGA I bought that developed image blur a month after the warranty expired, or the 25" WEGA that developed the red light of death. I trust Sony as much as I trust my friend's lost 144 hours of Oblivion to ever reappear, due to Sony's restrictive data and repair policies on PS3s.
The only Sony products that I even own that lend any faith, respect, or credibility in my mind for Sony's trustability, durability, or quality… Are my pair of Sony SOBAX ICC-500W calculators in my collection. And they were made in 1969. Yeah, It's been a while since I even remotely respected Sony. It's sad when I can power up a device made in 1969 and have it be more functional than devices bought in 2002, 2005, or 2008.
I mean… REALLY Sony??? Really?
Last edited by richfiles on 1/6/2013 9:48:21 PM
Here are my ideas.
Have game prices at set levels. $60 the first year and then $40 and so on. (None of that price lowering after the game has been out a couple of months)
Make online play only to the people that buy the game new (Have no other way to play online)
Make all the downloadable content *free* but only to people that buy the game new. (Have no other way of playing/buying it)
Disable the games trophies. Unless the game was bought new.
Not bad ideas, but there is more to consider.
Last edited by AcHiLLiA on 1/4/2013 1:36:12 PM
On my Kindle I can download ebooks and lend them to others later if need be or even sell them back to Amazon. Maybe something like this.
As long as there is a cost saving to compensate the inability to on sell then it should be fine. Amazon digital books seem to be half the price of the physical copies. Steam has cheaper digital PC games.
However, I have yet to see anything drastically cheaper with PSN digital games. Sony needs to change this to keep competitive.
lets see….
downloading music = stealing from the artists
downloading movies = stealing from the studios
trading used games = stealing from developers
I'm really tired of having these conversations.
I feel everyone of these problems are rooted from a blind allegiance to an outdated business model.
And now after much needed compromises:
The Music Industry reluctantly embrace Itunes.
The Movie Studios are constantly negotiating with online streaming.
but the Game Studios — nothing.
Now we hear a rumor that PS4 won't allow us to play used games? WTF?
If everybody knows there is a market in the selling used games why not DIY?
Crush Gamestop by offering a Gamefly/Redbox business model to subscribers.
Somebody wants to buy NBA Live 15 used?
Mail it to them.
I hate leaving my house and going Gamestop
They are lame their generic cases are crap and the prices are suspect, especially when a game that is labeled on the shelf "brand new" is no longer in a sealed package & all extra content (download codes,maps,etc) has been removed.
That is not a "brand new" game anymore you can't sell it like that. Its now become a used and opened game.
I digress- I for one dislike Gamestop
but
If a game company would offer to sell me and trade used games and also send them to my home
we wouldn't need any more gamestops
Then the Ps4 wouldn't need anymore restrictions. It could do anything you ever wanted play used games learn solitaire make toast whatever.
thats not such a bad idea.
sure its going to piss ALLOT of people off, and allot of people will say fine im not buying your system.
but ive got a feeling everyone will be doing this soon, so its either you put up with it or you just dont play games anymore.
i personally dont mind the idea though.
manufactures dont make any money of hardware and accessories 99% of the time, 99% of their profits are from games.
and they see zero profits on games if there sold used, so hows that fair to them?
the retailer, who is doing jack sh*t, gets 2 dips at the pie, and the poor buggers working overtime staying back to 2am every morning, working saturdays, for 2 months straight, get jack!
hows that fair?
2 solutions to the problem.
1 retailers give over a percentage of their used profits, which will NEVER happen!
and manufactures know this, so there going with the only other option.
i say fair game.
they make all their profits on game sales, so there just making sure every time someone buys their game they are getting the advantage of that.
Sounds fair to me!
Yeah but doesn't sound fair to me. Why would I pay 60$ for something that used to have a resale value and does not anymore.
If it becomes too big I do hope that everyone will tell them off. Gamers go on a rampage for every little thing (cough Mass Effect cough) but when it really matters they just shake in a corner? We need to put our foot down for the good reasons. This is a good one and we have to stop them if they do it. When I buy a physical product, I should be able to do whatever I want with it. Data that is on it should be all MINE and accessible even if their service goes down. If they refuse to do it then PLEASE change the term buying for *long term RENT* because to buy something is to own it and I feel they are just tricking us.
there not tricking anyone, there just trying to solve a problem that is costing them a sh*t load of money!
certainly is not the ideal way to solve the problem, but what other ways are there?
maybe they will only use the tech for new releases, and maybe after a month or so the tech will be deactivated and then consumers can trade and buy used.
manufactures need to find a way to get back some of the used game sales, this is really the only practical easy way to do so.
id be great if they could negotiate with stores that they get a certain % of used sales.
that way things stay the same for consumers, and the problems solved.
but theres no way in hell stores are going to agree with that, so what other choice do they have?
Maybe Sony will sell the games used themselves?
For instance you buy a game for $60 and trade it in or sell it for $25 and Sony unlocks it for $25 for the other persons system on a game that just came out.
Its just a thought because Sony and other publishers want a piece of the used game market more than they want to destroy it. They know everyone can't buy it new but the more money they could get from a used sale they would like that.
Used game sales is a problem for publishers, but this isn't a solution if it's true.
By your logic, used car sales are a problem for GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, and Nissan.
By your logic, used home sales are a problem for carpenters, plumbers, and electricians.
By your logic, garage sales, ebay, and pawn shops are a problem for commercial retailers, like Walmart, Target, Best Buy, Kay, etc.
What gives game developers a free pass to kill the free market. Are they special. No, they are not. They work just as hard as the auto assembly line workers, the department store manager, the electrician… They do a different job, with different requirements, but they are not privileged.
They are leveraging the fact that their software exclusively runs on hardware from a limited gamut of manufacturers (Sony, MS, Nintendo), that they can force the hand and take anti-consumerist actions that give them an unfair advantage.
I have NEVER bought an online pass. I also buy used. I don't really care. If I REALLY wanted to play a game online, i might consider it, but I usually just buy games that won't give me any fuss to start with. I refuse to buy any game that demands an always active internet connection. I refuse to.
If developers want to make profit on games after the initial sale… Make worthwhile DLC for the games and sell that.
Never in all of history has the "we don't make money on used sales" spiel ever been more of a lie. DLC is able to provide revenue to developers, even on used game sales. one disc might result in 1, 2, 3, or even more instances of DLC purchases. Look at the sales success of games that release with early sale prices. Portal 2 dropped to $40 in only a week or two, due to a sale at Gamestop. I don't know if other retailers did that. We couldn't keep it in stock. We've seen similar with other new titles. If companies would do week 1 discounts, they'd NATURALLY make more new sales at launch. You can make up discounts with quantity, if you do your numbers right.
I simply don't believe in any of the excuses.
Why are devs losing money?
It's a crap economy.
People are not comfortable paying $60 for a game.
People can't justify $30-50 in DLC right away.
Devs are using every advantage to milk consumers for every last dime, and the true solution would be to make it EASIER for people to get the games. I will agonize for months hoping for a $30 DLC to price drop, and sometimes I'll even look at $15 and think, meh, I can wait…
And yet, I'll drop cash on $4.99 DLC in a heart beat. For the love all things silicon, I've spent $5 to get ad free versions of FREE programs!
I'll buy a game used if I can get it for a good price, and if there's good DLC, I'll consider it.
They'd make so many more sales by just lowering their pricing expectations. These devs simply don't get that the economy is incompatible with their demands.
Last edited by richfiles on 1/6/2013 10:18:52 PM
Sony would be insane to actually go through with this. The only way this could be pulled off without Sony commiting corporate suicide is if the big 3 all chose to do this together. I don't see that happening.
I guess if it happens I will become a retro gamer.
HA! EA is probably celebrating over at their headquarters since they have long been one the biggest cry babies when it comes to used game sales. That was always such a turn off because they have been one the most profiable software publishers out there.
With my backlog of unplayed games… I wouldn't even notice the next TWO generations before getting through it all! XD
I think Sony should quit this hogwash. As far as I'm concerned, a used copy means someone already purchased the game brand-new at some point, meaning Sony already netted themselves a cool chunk o' change. For example, Uncharted 3 sold almost 4 freaking million brand-new copies on LAUNCH. Who cares about the thousands of used copies that are being sold? Naughty Dog and Sony are golden from the profits! And don't even get me started on the dozens of other titles that sell brand new. This is all just really unnecessary.
really? "who cares about the thousands of used copies being sold?". you are looking at only one side of the subject, your own. If youre on the other side of the fence, you would do the same as he devs. if you open your mind up a bit, you'll realize that those thousands of used game sales is actually millions if not a billion dollar business. Those profit earned by gamestop would be used on their own stores instead of being given to the game devs to pay their employees, some studios closed down, or put into making newer games that is exactly what gamers want, more games.
Game development cost money. you want a higher quality game? then its gonna cost them a chuck o change. the "thousands" of used game sales translate to the developers loss in new game sales, i dont know why thats so hard for people to understand. the profit from these new game sales will be used to run studios and fund new games. if a used game is bought then they cant do such things for themselves and close down. Sure you say they make money from the initial launch sales, but they were losing money from the time they started making the actually game, no profit for them there. thats why they have to sell a huge amount of copies BEFORE they break even.
John, you talk for the devs but are you one?
The DEVS are not the one pushing for this piece of crap. THE INVESTORS are. Majority of DEVS are gamers and do not believe in this crap.
In the end it will just hurt them because I will toss consoles aside and just stick to PC. What's the point of owning a console if I can't even bring my games to my buddy's house anymore? Now it will be totally no different from my PC. I own consoles for couch-coop and party fun first, then for their exclusives. Anyway I do hope it never happens. They will just kill the market.
Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 1/5/2013 1:47:47 AM