When you have a new engine, you're a little more confident that you're keeping up with technology.

DICE has said several times that Battlefield 3 will push both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to their limits, and the studio isn't frightened of new consoles, either. DICE executive producer Patrick Bach told CVG that the upcoming FPS would be one of the best-looking console games of the year, but he'll "prove it rather than talk about it." And furthermore, he claims their Frostbite 2.0 engine "could cope with a new generation:"

"I don't know what the big corporations are thinking but definitely we are desperate to move on into the next generation. I think Battlefield 3 will look like a next-generation game and all the technology we're building, the whole Frostbite 2 system – the animations, audio, everything – is trying to aim for a couple of years in the future, rather than looking at what we have today.

We are already there. If [Microsoft or Sony] were to release a new console tomorrow, the engine would scale onto that platform, because we have been looking at not only the PC technology today but also speculating what will happen tomorrow when it comes to these things. So everything from our streaming technologies [to] rendering technologies is scalable onto future platforms."

Planning ahead is always a good idea. If you have an outdated engine and your productions look outdated on current consoles, you can't possibly be in a good position for the next round of systems. But DICE appears to be in the opposite position…and we're all sorts of excited for Battlefield 3 .

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bigrailer19
bigrailer19
9 years ago

I'm excited for the game, really am.

But when I hear things like this it makes me wonder. Sure the engine would work on the next generation of consoles, but will it work at a level that the GoW3 engine is working on the PS3, or ND's engine on the PS3? I mean you can have an engine that will work, but will it work to that level? We'll see how good BF3 looks when it releases before I say anything about their engine. But I am really excited for BF3, and if it looks as good and runs as good as they are saying, can't wait!


Last edited by bigrailer19 on 4/14/2011 11:02:52 AM

Godslim
Godslim
9 years ago

" I think Battlefield 3 will look like a next-generation game " bold claim tbh
tho bf3 has me excited cant wait!

FatherSun
FatherSun
9 years ago

When they make an engine that the current consoles cannot run then they should introduce the new consoles. PS3 if fine for now. Can't say the same for the BOX and Wii is CUBE 1.5 so I expect M$ and Nintendo to jump in first. I am not against the next gen but I am content with what I have. What would a PS4 be like anyway? More RAM, upgraded processors? What else? A few tweaks here and there. PS3.5 may be all that is needed. It seems like they wish to create the perception of a need for a new console generation as opposed to the actual NEED of it.

I wish Sony would just blast the comp into oblivion. Let the competition show their stuff. Then introduce the historically much more advanced PS4 afterward then kill them by putting the machine out to market before they do. That would be some accomplishment. Wouldn't it?

Yeah I fantasize about this. Sony has been persecuted too much this generation. Undeservedly so. I just can't get how most can't wrap their heads around the value of the system. I do blame Sony somewhat. They need to be a better pusher man.


Last edited by FatherSun on 4/14/2011 11:16:01 AM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

The thing is though, that the game console is a known quantity. the programming model for consoles is based on that consistent platform that is known inside out. You build an engine and incrementally improve and optimize it to fit the platform. Having many years of a single platform allows significant improvements in the engine design and performance. What DICE are doing though, is building a new game engine for contemporary high end gaming rigs and then back-porting that to current consoles. There's an obvious flaw in that the capabilities of the GPUs in a contemporary high end gaming rig are vastly superior to the GPU capabilities in the current consoles, as is the GPU performance available.

DICE are essentially complaining that the capabilities of today's consoles have not changed with the GPU industry. Well, of course they haven't, they never were going to. That's the nature of a video game console, it's a single, closed, fixed platform. It is what it is. If they spent more time working on their console game engines and less time building ever more exotic PC game engines they might have more success.

___________
___________
9 years ago

hell no!
they would have less success!
90% of DICEs fans are hardcore PC fans, you really suggesting they should stop making games for the PC, and start giving 90% of there fanbase a crappy console port?
look at all the crap crytek are copping after doing the exact same thing with crysis 2!

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

Not really, I'm suggesting that they stop expecting a 5/6 year old console generation can keep up with the latest GPU love from AMD/ATI and nVidia. I'm saying that rather than whining about it, they could focus some of their talent on console specific game engines rather than trying to shoehorn their PC version onto the consoles.

The complaints about the consoles comes across as a complaint that the consoles haven't kept pace with PCs. Well, no duh! Of course they haven't they're a platform that's fixed in stone at launch. DICE are smart enough to know this, yet they'd rather sound like churlish children than mature developers – IMHO of course.

___________
___________
9 years ago

they are, if battlefield 3 is not one of the best looking console games this year ill eat my nacho hat!
there about pushing systems to the limit, no matter what system it is.
so of course there going to want more!
there one of the few developers out there that really wants to show the world how far games can go, how photo realistic we can get.
and i applaud them for that!

AshT
AshT
9 years ago

those are bold statements, i guess first they have to come up to the level of PS3 exclusives… yet i'm quite excited for BF3

maxpontiac
maxpontiac
9 years ago

The PS3 will live up to it's potential once the next generation Xbox comes out.

The lack of HDD and Blu Ray, despite any 360 fan might say to the contrary, is an Achilles heel.

main_event05
main_event05
9 years ago

I <3 how Sony develops new tech for their consoles instead of using dated tech. I guess that is one of the differences between being a hardware company that makes consoles and being a software company that makes sad excuses for consoles.

maxpontiac
maxpontiac
9 years ago

It's also why my money goes to PS3 developers first.

The multiplatform catering studios get my attention after the fact.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

This Xbox fan would welcome a new console. And then, a couple years later, the almighty PS4 that, unequically, will lay the smack down with its awesomeness and attractiveness.

Simcoe
Simcoe
9 years ago

My concern, if the ps4 comes out a "couple years after" the next xbox, will most (3rd party) developers, once again, use the xbox as their ceiling and not try and progress a game beyond that?

kraygen
kraygen
9 years ago

shouldn't be a problem, with the tech that M$ is willing to use even if they came out with a new system it would at best match the ps3.

So really all it would do for ps3 users is mean we might not have our games gimped as bad, but of course the M$ product will most likely still be using dvds so I guess we'll be gimped for a while.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

Good concern there Simcoe. The all knowing Temjin who has been to the future and back is ready to divulge the details.

If the Ps3 had more RAM and a bit more powerful GPU it could've easily had superior multiplats this gen over the 360. that is, if the ps3 played by 360 rules, it could always muscle through superiority without Cell optimizations. As it stands now the memory capacity and GPU abilities are so close to each other that it's hard for devs to give ps3 multiplats that superior edge.

So to relate this to PS4, if it had a sizable performance lead over the nextXbox in terms of memory and GPU we could expect multiplats to be superior in nearly every case. And, of course, the first party stuff will be uber better. So, in the end, rather than a situation like we have now, where PS3 has better looking exclusives but sketchy to uncommonly better multiplats, we'd have complete superiority. And, at last, the world would be ours…. and we shall have peace.

Longest cellphone post ever….. For me
Oh and nevermind the going into the future bit, Id erase that but icant figure out how to scroll my phone back up there. I changed gears on my post unexpectantly. Yeah, I can be random like that

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

Temjin,

As Sony's first party devs have shown, you can leverage the CellBE's SPUs to supplement the GPU, and the GPU can access data in main memory and graphics memory simultaneously and at more or less the same bandwidth. So using the Cell SPUs to offload some tasks from the GPU to free it up for other things works quite well. It also effectively grows the available memory for the graphics. Of course as you point out, multi-plat devs are not going to go that route, but if they did, I think we'd see a whole order magnitude improvement in multi-plat games on PS3.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

Yah man, now that devs like bioware used Sonys spu driven AA in games like DA2, memory is being freed up and we're seeing a performance advantage PS3 side

Simcoe
Simcoe
9 years ago

I remember reading that Sony wanted developers to use the SPE's and not be so dependant on the GPU. It's just easier and less costly for 3rd party developers to use the GPU rather than spending a lot of time and money experimenting with the SPE's.

Of course the media format is another big concern. There have only been a handful of games that have dared used more than 1 DVD. We've all heard the costs and penalties for developers releasing xbox games using more than one disc.

As time goes on, 3rd party developers have had to start learning and tapping into those SPE's. I'm hoping that the PS4 continues to use the latest version of the CellBE if only to keep things simple for developers (obviously BC for PS3 games would be nice too).

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

Sadly Simcoe, the CellBE project ended and there will be no more direct updates past the several year old PowerXcell8i processor. However the Power7 processor – which is a *monster* big chip – incorporates a lot of design concepts and elements from the CellBE project, obviously everything is enhanced and optimized even further in Power7 as well. However Power7 is mostly a server chip, and it is extremely large – resulting in low yields rather like the early CellBE production.

However, if the CPU was slimmed down by removing some of the ridiculously large on-chip cache, dropping one of the 4 channel memory controllers and keeping the number of complete cores on the chip under control (I believe it can do as high as 8 cores, although each core has 12 different execution units (that are almost cores in their own right). Each core in the Power7 architecture can handle 4 threads simultaneously. So a quad core system can have 16 different tasks running simultaneously. Each core has 4 double precision floating point units, which provides huge floating point math capability, even relative to what the CellBE designs can do.

The Power7 is a PowerPC derived design, so they are in the same family as the CellBE is. It's not outside the realm of possibility to imagine a quad or 8 core Power7 being at the heart of the PS4, it does rather depend on how well they can scale the design for consumer systems. Also, Sony now owns the CellBE manufacturing plants again, the ones that it had previously sol it's half share of to Toshiba. I believe that Sony also has access to the SPURS design that Toshiba was manufacturing for a while which is essentially a CellBE without the PowerPC element – in other words it's just the SPUs.

I'll just indulge in a little geek speculation now…

I could imagine an architecture that has a Power7 CPU with a SPURS co-processor and perhaps even a fermi GPU. The SPURS co-processor would provide the SPUs that are needed to maintain PS3 compatibility, using an nVidia GPU would make backwards compatibility with RSX potentially easier, but the real powerhouse in the system would be the Power7.

That would be a very nice, very, very fast system that offers easy backwards compatibility with PS3. Can we say Yeah!?

Dancemachine55
Dancemachine55
9 years ago

Highlander, send in a resume to Sony, cos that would be a dream machine to house all those components to make the Playstation 4.

Only 3 issues come to mind though,

1. Price – new tech = big bucks
2. Heat syncing and reduction issues
3. A new optical disc format that's larger than 100GB that Sony was rumoured to be toying with. (again, expensive)

Hopefully the PS4 will not go above the $599 USD price point like the PS3 did on launch. (Or $999 AUD, which was $300 more than a 360 in Australia, and guess which sold more? The cheaper console)

Qubex
Qubex
9 years ago

What ever happens Highlander, if Sony skimp on RAM, then were are screwed again… with the I/O being horribly slowed down with additional hard drive thrashing we see today.

If go onto HOME, and then, while staying in the HOME square, hit play-station button a browse your friends list via the XMB, try to send a few messages, you will see the poor machine suffer as it desperately tries to multi task and manage RAM access at the same time…

The amount of RAM has definitely become the PS3's biggest bottle neck. As you stated before, in your longer posts… the Cell Be and RSX combination is very powerful, if there were no RAM restrictions, these chips in concert could crunch through a huge amount of data very quickly… The physical HD, the Ram and Blu-Ray player all contribute to actually slowing down the system ūüôĀ

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"

main_event05
main_event05
9 years ago

"DICE has said several times that Battlefield 3 will push both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to their limits"

How is that gonna work?? Are they gonna make two completely different games?

And Ben this is way off topic but i'm having trouble changing my avatar. whatever I upload turns into that old pic i had of me and my now ex-girlfriend.


Last edited by main_event05 on 4/14/2011 11:26:29 AM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

One would hope so since a game optimized for the 360 looks like crap ported to the PS3, and a game optimized for the PS3 (including heavy SPU use) looks like crap when ported to the 360.

maxpontiac
maxpontiac
9 years ago

I don't see EA and Dice offering an inferior version to the Shooter happy 360 population.

By my estimate, BF3 should be at least a 2-3 disc DVD game with one to two for the singleplayer and one for the multiplayer.

Underdog15
Underdog15
9 years ago

@main_event
I've noticed when uploading, it might not show the new pic to you. But move on as if it has. Go find a post you have made, and refresh the page.

New avatar should show.

main_event05
main_event05
9 years ago

thanks for the tip

Clamedeus
Clamedeus
9 years ago

Sometimes it takes a couple of minutes for it to show up when you update your avatar.

jdt1981
jdt1981
9 years ago

That's what I'm wondering… We hear this BS all the time and it annoys me. If they go the usual third party multi-plat route and make the game identical on all platforms there's no way their game will push the PS3 to it's limits. Third party multi-plat devs always say this crap and yet PS3 exclusives always outclass MP games.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

I think DICE's biggest problem here is that they have build a game engine for PC graphics whores who's video card costs more than a couple of PS3s. That's all fine and well, but that kind of ridiculous engine simply doesn't scale back to video game consoles, and it never will. Today they're complaining. In two eyars, their PC based engine will require twice as much hardware again, and even if a new game console generation magically this year, it would be out of date before it had achieved any significant market penetration. Honestly I'm so bloody sick and tired of the treadmill of constant upgrade that the PC game developers want to foist on game consoles. the whole point of game consoles is that it's a closed, fixed platform that doesn't change, which allows developers to invest time and effort in optimizing their game engine for the specific platform. But because *some* developers are primarily developing on the PC and constantly scaling their engines to match the best available PC hardware (and then some) they are utterly missing the point of game consoles. then, shock horror, they come out with whining statements saying they want a new generation of console. Of course they do, that's easier for them than paring their engine down for current consoles and optimizing it appropriately.

This is getting ridiculous, I'm beginning to think this is the PC gaming industry's final revenge.

Snorge
Snorge
9 years ago

LoL! I agree man. The PC gamers kinda have gotten screwed this gen since the devs are more focused on consoles since there seems to be less piracy (I really dont think so, your average PC pirate can easily become your run of the mill console pirate as well).

And to boot, yes I stopped playing PC games a couple years ago just becuase I got tired of dishing out money for a faster processor, more ram, and better video card EVERY time a new AAA game came out…UGH

Killa Tequilla
Killa Tequilla
9 years ago

I already pre ordered and put down 60 bucks on the table.

kraygen
kraygen
9 years ago

When I see a third party game with ps3 exclusive quality all the way around, then I'll start considering the possibility of a next generation.

What I've seen of BF3 looks really awesome, but most likely it's pc graphics and until the game is out and we see a perfect running beautiful game on ps3, the next gen talk can just shush.

Jawknee
Jawknee
9 years ago

How do they know considering they have zero clue as to what would be under the hood of these new consoles?

amonte
amonte
9 years ago

"DICE has said several times that Battlefield 3 will push both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to their limits"

It's impossible for a multiplatform game to push the PS3 to it's limits. How about DICE, you make a PS3 exclusive that completely uses all of what the PS3 has and than you can start talking about next-gen.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

There's a world of difference between pushing a system to it's limits in contrast to optimizing a system to it's limits. I could get in a Ferrari and put the peddle to the metal just fine(pushing it to it's limits) but not anyone could be as fast around a pro circuit like a pro (or ninja) could.

Snorge
Snorge
9 years ago

A ninja driving a car!? DISGRACE! lmao

big6
big6
9 years ago

As an aside, I'm absolutely positive the new Xbox will not be called "Xbox 720". =)

Most-likely, it will be something with a name, and not an iteration number.

main_event05
main_event05
9 years ago

maybe they should call it the 180, in hopes they'll go in the complete opposite direction they did this gen.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

XSphere?

Xperia Play?

Oopsie!

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

*Sight, moan* Don't lay your dissatisfaction with the currently last gen hardware you have to squeeze your games onto at the feet of the PS3.

Dancemachine55
Dancemachine55
9 years ago

Speaking of last gen, PS2 has finally been laid to rest. 2011 was the final year of FIFA, WWE and a few Japanese games.

If DICE want a new console, they will just have to wait like everyone else. If they don't like consoles, than just stick to PC development, miss out on a huge chunk of potential gamers on consoles and quit your whining.

Like Highlander said, consoles are a closed system that you spend time to optimise. If DICE want to keep pushing tech and graphics and physics forward every 2-3 years, consoles are not the way to do it. DICE, of all companies, should know that.

As for using a current-gen engine on a next gen console, isn't that a bit of an achilles heel? Sure, you can upscale it, but I prefer to see something fresh and that wows me on a new console. God of War 1 and 2 were upscaled, look amazing, but it's definitely not current gen tech.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

It makes sense. If they've built their engine to take advantage of the cutting-edge tech available in PCs, I can fully understand why they'd be crying for a new console cycle. That is a world apart from the consoles of today… in some aspects anyway. However, pushing the PC to its max is different from a console, as the PC is constantly evolving and a developer only need to continue to max out the processor. Consoles remain standard for many years, so it requires learning the ins and outs of the architecture to really make a top notch game on them.

Still, this news makes me really hopeful for Battlefield 3, even if it doesn't necessarily increase my desire for a PS4.
Peace.

Excelsior1
Excelsior1
9 years ago

i would love to see a new round of hardware. the leap from generation to generation is always fun to watch unfold. the leap from the ps2 to the ps3 was impressive. i can only dream of how big the leap to the ps4 will be.


Last edited by Excelsior1 on 4/14/2011 1:28:34 PM

Clamedeus
Clamedeus
9 years ago

That would be cool, but i don't think we are ready yet.

Highlightreel
Highlightreel
9 years ago

Ok, I KNOW this has been said a million times already, but how long does the ps3 have to suffer b/c of the capabilities of the xbox? I'm starting to get a twitch! When when when will they make a console game that maxes the ps3, and therefore, the game CLEARLY looks and is better on the PS3 vs the xbox?

They already do this for pc's. Games on pc's look better than on consoles. Also, if you have a better pc it looks better than a crappy pc. You have a better system it should look better than the other systems!! So simple. Does m$ really pay everyone to hold back on the ps3??? Are game developers going to get banned on the xbox if their game looks better on the ps3? What's up man? I need a hug.

Stay classy PSX…


Last edited by Highlightreel on 4/14/2011 2:21:23 PM

Snorge
Snorge
9 years ago

…hug? LMAO! I can picture you on the end of the couch rocking back and forth with your arms wrapped around your legs with your lip quivering….LoL!

Crabba
Crabba
9 years ago

"Battlefield 3 will push both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to their limits" – Somehow I doubt that… xbox yes, PS3 not likely. Even if this game turns out to be one of those games that look the same on both consoles, it's still a far cry from pushing the PS3 to its limit…

RadioHeader
RadioHeader
9 years ago

Damnit, I misread – or misplaced the quotes in the title and thought they were confirming "Move" support. Instead it's this crap again..

I've done my calculations and have determined that the PS3 is good for another 40 years, at least. I may need that time to finish Demon's Souls.

jimmyhandsome
jimmyhandsome
9 years ago

Well, it looks like they might get there wish with Nintendo supposedly going to unveil a new console at E3

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

Indeed. The next Wii might actually match the PS3 and/or 360. Like I've said before, and will say again, HDTV resolution is limited to 1080p. A Wii HD will at best catch up with the existing HD consoles – capabilities. Considering the game libraries and strong first party support for PS3, I don't think there's much to fear from WiiHD, although, when it eventually launches it will sell like the proverbial hotcakes for a while as the more affluent Wii owners upgrade. If Nintendo announces the WiiHD, expect both Sony and MS to fire back with a price cut and especially from Sony, even more online emphasis and first part exclusive content.

I think that unless MS is ready to announce the 360's successor at E3 also, they will do what Sony did and wait it out. If both Sony and Microsoft stand pat on their current systems with price cuts and ever more games, they can go another two years without a new console because the Wii really will not offer much of anything over and above what the 360 and PS3 already have. This could be very good for Sony/MS and very bad for Nintendo, if both Sony and MS handle it correctly. Nintendo also needs to remember that while MS was blasting Sony when the PS3 launched, that was because Sony was the primary competition. Now with an HD console, Nintendo enter's the fray with 75 million Wii owners out there to boot. That makes them a much more important target than they once were. Nintendo could find itself on the receiving end of a FUD campaign as MS struggles to remain relevant outside the US market.