There's nothing better than gorgeous 1080p high definition for games or movies. …well, perhaps maybe engaging 3D in 720p?

For the most part, that will be the trade-off, according to what a Sony representative said during this past week's Develop conference . The "official guidelines" for 3D games on the PS3 set the resolution to 720p; even if a game runs natively in 1080p, it will be downscaled in 3D mode for two 720p images, "one for each eye." Sony's Simon Benson did confirm that the PS3 is capable of displaying a 1080p 3D image (it would have to, if 1080p Blu-Ray movies are going 3D), but keeping that maxed resolution for games comes at the expense of the much-desired 60 frames per second, which is available at 720p. For the record, Blu-Ray movies run at 24 frames per second. So although "a more cinematic game" might work well with a lower frame rate at 1080p 3D, for the most part, 720p will be the standard for high-definition 3D interactive entertainment. But here's the good news: Benson says that in 3D, "even trained computer graphics artists could barely tell the difference between the resolutions."

I can imagine it'd be difficult to pick out resolution differences when immersed in 3D. And of course, most games don't play natively in 108p, anyway, although that might change in the future.

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StangMan80
StangMan80
11 years ago

All my games are 720i/p except one… Madden 10(1080p)

GuernicaReborn
GuernicaReborn
11 years ago

Maybe you can chalk this one up to a bad memory, but I've never heard of 720i, just p.

Qubex
Qubex
11 years ago

Nope, GT5 will be 1080p. I think Uncharted 2 is 1080p too. There are quite a few games that are 1080p which I cannot remember now…

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"

Shams
Shams
11 years ago

Uncharted 2 natively supports 720p. But [email protected], does it look fine.

djbool
djbool
11 years ago

Yeah only the biggest games seem to have 1080p/i (i.e. Uncharted 2 and MW2)

FullmetalX10
FullmetalX10
11 years ago

@djbool, umm dude, as I recall call of duty: modern warfare 2 runs even below 720p, somewhere in the 500-600 realm.
Uncharted 2, as shams said, also doesn't run in 1080p natively, but in 720p, still it looks fine as hell.


Last edited by FullmetalX10 on 7/16/2010 6:09:49 PM

bigrailer19
bigrailer19
11 years ago

absolutely right, most games only run natively at 720p that includes Uncharted 2. So this shouldn't matter, unless your trying to find another reason to hate on 3d.

GOW 3 runs at 1080i, as well does KZ2. MGS4 runs at 1080p though. I have a handful of other games at 1080p/i (mostly i) but other than that the majority are at 720p so this makes no difference to me. Not to mention Even if I stared very closely at my t.v. for hours, When playing a game the resolution is already much higher than a t.v. show, they look fantastic regardless. Uncharted 2 is testament to that!

Him
Him
11 years ago

I agree that you can hardly tell the difference between 1080p and 720p on any TV 50" or less. just look at Killzone 2 and Uncharted 2 they both look almost the same. (except the water graphics) UC2 runs at 720p and KZ2 runs at 1080i.

The developers of uncharted 2 wanted the game to run at 720P because they wanted to boost texture resolution. Ever notice that there was never one single blurry texture in uncharted? (correct me if i'm wrong) Even Killzone 2 was at first going to be 720p but for reasons I don't know, they made it up to 1080i.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

We probably ought to define these HD modes better.

720p – 1280×720 resolution, progressive scan, a full resolution image is sent with each frame (1280×720 = 1MPixel) .
720p60 – 60 frames per second, progressive scan, 1280×720 resolution.
720p30 – 30 frames per second, progressive scan, 1280×720 resolution.
720i – there is no 720i standard.
1080p – 1920×1080 resolution, progressive scan, every frame sent is a full 2Mpixel 1920×1080 image.
1080p24 – 24 frames per second, 1920×1080 resolution, progressive scan
1080p30 – 30 frames per second, 1920×1080 resolution, progressive scan
1080p60 – 60 frames per second, 1920×1080 resolution, progressive scan – the gold standard of HD.
1080i – interlaced 1920×1080. Each image (also called a field) sent is 1920 X 540 and two fields are interlaced to form a complete frame. it's effectively 30 frames a second, but because of the way the TV de-interlaces the fields into frames, it's presented as if it was 60 frames per second.

Other things to note, 720p TVs can de-interlace and down-scale 1080i to their own native resolution, which is why 720p TVs are also 1080i compatible.

Condemnedsoul23
Condemnedsoul23
11 years ago

@ GuernicaReborn there's 720 I/P and 1080 I/P with P being top. It's ahrd to tell the difference and I is nowhere enar as comming as it used to be since 1080 P is everywhere. My first HD tv was 1080 I and I still have it. Obviously it would be better than both 720 verisons but not as good as 1080 P but barely.

Temjin001
Temjin001
11 years ago

Just got to insert something here about GT5 and 1080p. It isn't being rendered at an actual 1920x1080p, rather 1280x1080p w/2xMSAA.
And while it's running in 720p mode (to those who don't have a 1080p set, or, those who consciously select 720p as the output feed from the XMB) the MSAA gets bumped up to 4x.

If you want a great look at full 1920x1080p @ 60fps just turn your attention towards Ridge Racer 7. A fav arcade racer of mine.
WipeOut HD is good, too. But it fudges a little with a scaleable res while racing.
And if my memory serves me right, insanely, those who remember Full Auto (you know the one with the cars and guns) it runs a 1080p + 4x MSAA !!!???. Framerate is destroyed because of it. But go ahead guys!. Go download the RR7 and Full Auto demo off PSN to see the clarity in action!

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

@Temjin,

Doesn't Ridge Raver 7 kinda make you wish that Namco Bandai still made games that well?

Temjin001
Temjin001
11 years ago

@Highlander

I'm glad you like RR7.
And come to think of it I can't remember the last good Namco game I've played outside of their traditional games. You may know this already, but back in the early days of PSX, Namco was a major contributor to the Playstation brand.

To speak candidly about RR7.
While it's a fav racer of mine, and I enjoy it's unique brand of play, it's pretty antiquated in it's arcade roots. I'm beginning to wonder if the way the cars power-slide will begin to look pretty comical as gaming console graphics enhance. But I'm sure I'll enjoy the intense gameplay none-the-less.

I'm just glad Namco still throws a bone to the fans who've been behind the series since the beginning. It seems like a tradition for them to have a RR to coincide with many system launches, and all of Sony's, even the PSP.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

Oh, I like RR7 alright, it's very arcady – which is *fine* with me, I'm not always looking for a driving simulator…

As for Namco, the last good game of theirs I played was Soul Calibur 4 which was a visual feast, but the actual game play modes and story were inferior to Soul Calibur 3 and 2 on the PS2. A pity, I had hoped that with the upgrade on the PS3, they'd do even better, but it appaears that they spent all that time that could have gone into a more engaging and in-depth SP mode, on multi-player online play – which wasn't liked by many anyway (too much la.aa.a.aa.gg.gg.gg.g.g.g.gg).

When they decided not to bring the most recent tales game to the west I was very disappointed with them. I just hope that the rumored news about the next (and final?) tales game coming to the PS3 is true, and that it comes westward as well.

maxpontiac
maxpontiac
11 years ago

No worries here. 720p still looks good to me.

AcHiLLiA
AcHiLLiA
11 years ago

yah, at least 720p is better than 480p. For 3D it sounds good for the start and later in the future they will progress higher.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

And of course, most games don't play natively in 108p, anyway, although that might change in the future.

Well, I'd hope most games run at a far higher resolution than that. 😛

Hasn't this been common knowledge for a while now? I remember reading several months ago that it was all but impossible to render a game in both 3D and 1080p because it was far too much of a drain on te processing capabilities of the system. Either way, I'm still not sold on 3D, even watching Avatar I found that the two images were overlapping each other, which makes me think there must be an optimal viewing range for it. I don't like the idea of having to sit a certain distance away to get the full effect. It'll be good for those that are interested though.

Peace.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

You can render a game in 3D 1080p60 if you want to. The PS3 can handle that. However, the 'trick' is that to do that, your textures and effects need to be simple and sparse and there really doesn't need to be a lot going on on-screen. In terms of the number of pixels and the data rate required, the PS3 can push 3D 1080p60, but you'd be stuck with games that use lots of simple geometry and Goraud shading – which wouldn't really sell it, you know?

Underdog15
Underdog15
11 years ago

You should get an avitar. I keep associating you with the anonymous cowherd.

In terms of the 3D movement, I'm not entirely sold on 3D either. But for me it's more about motion sickness and my weak lil' belly. I think if images are overlapping, I'd be forced to play all my games 100% sober!

Qubex
Qubex
11 years ago

Highlander, yes, simple games for 3D HD 1080p… however after reading an in-depth article from Digital Foundry about that very question, and going into a lot of detail of how demanding it actually is, it does prove my earlier assumption that the PS3 is peaking at its limits with doing 3D…

Basically, a more comfortable zone, with full 3D HD 1080p and no compromise on texture and mode; quality/complexity would be on the PS4… that is when my 3D experience will start. in a few years time 🙂

There is quite a bit of trickery to get the PS3 to purr nicely in 3D with a decent frame rate… but 720p should cover the majority of gamers with adequate quality…

Of course a decent PC rig today will really blow the PS3 out of the water… hello Fermi 🙂

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

@ Highlander,
I know it can be done, but like you said, not in any game that would feel truly current gen. Best wait for the PS4 IMO. Also, I've been meaning to ask, does 3D take up more disc space than 2D?

@ Underdog,
I really should, but I'm having trouble deciding on a picture that I'd like to use as a representation of myself. I know it's only a signature, but still. Also, you're comparing me to a New South Welshman? That's just rude.

@ Qubex,
Yeah, pretty much what you said.

Peace.

fluffer nutter
fluffer nutter
11 years ago

The two popular types of 3D, that I have read about, are not able to handle 3D at 1080P. I was looking for updates on this, last night, and everything points to 720P because of technique and hardware capabilities. Nvidia has the handle on 3D in 1080P and so far have the only released solution.

Does that sound right?

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

Yes and no. I don't think that you'll have top wait for the PS4 for 3D gaming to arrive. 720p in 3D will be quite sufficient for the majority of people. Remember there are still people claiming not to see any major difference between SD and HD.

The point I was making is that it's possible to render 3D in 1080p60 with the current hardware. what matters is what you are doing besides the final render and display. Obviously a game trying to run at that resolution is limited in terms of what else it can do.

However at 3D at 720p60 results in a 30 frames per second 3D equivalent because two frames are required for each 3D 'frame' seen by the viewer.

Asking the PS3 to do 720p60 is not a problem, and many game developers have shown that they are very adept at producing complex images at 720p60. So I have no doubt that as time passes 3D games in 720p60 will not only look good, they'll play well.

Sure there is a difference going up to 1080p, but you know what, the absolute majority of games today run at 720p, for a variety of reasons. However the point is that the additional work to render 3D in 720p is the 3D processing along because the console is already rendering 60 frames per second. By sticking to 720p resolution and framerates, the impact of adding the 3D burden to a game engine is lightened.

At the end of the day, 3D games in 720p are going to be more than good enough for most.

Fane1024
Fane1024
11 years ago

@Lawless

If you can't decide on an image, you could use your PSN portable ID (do they have those on the PAL PlayStation site?). I couldn't settle on anything better, so I figured something is better than nothing.

Or, you could always go with a pic of Lucy Lawless until you think of something better.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

Yeah, I can't access my PSN account, so that idea is out, and I swear I would shoot myself before using a picture of Lucy Lawless.

Peace.

Shams
Shams
11 years ago

Bluray will natively display at 24, 30, or 60fps depending on the content and whether your bluray player 1080p/24fps setting, whatever it's called, is turned on, and the content supports that. Why choose 24fps over 30? Supposedly, it reduces screen-judder as cinema is filmed at 24fps. Regular tv programs are filmed at 30fps, for the most part, and video is 60fps. These are North American standards, so it may be different in europe, as I know their TV's historically have operated at higher framerate/frequency.

Of course, additionally, some TV's support the 1080p/24fps cinema feature. But w/o it selected or turned on, those motionflow/automotion features intermittently can boost the framerate anywhere from 60fps to 240fps, consequently giving regular cinema that "video" look.

Shams
Shams
11 years ago

Woops, I meant to capitalize "Europe".

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
11 years ago

My new TV does that. It's pretty crazy.

Beamboom
Beamboom
11 years ago

@shams: "Regular tv programs are filmed at 30fps" -> that's on NTSC (usa). PAL (europe) is 24fps.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
11 years ago

How come games mostly only get up to 720p at 30fps then?

Shams
Shams
11 years ago

That is typically the sweet spot with the current generation of consoles, and their RAM limitations. A higher resolution or framerate would mean less detailed textures, fewer polygons and on screen assets, or a compromise in performance such as late-texture loading, screen-tearing, slow-down, input lag (late or irresponsive controls).

So my fear with 3D, is even at 720p/30fps, we will see the same kinds of compromises (fewer on screen assets and simpler textures), which is a bummer for those like myself who won't be opting for 3D early.

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

You sure its the sweet spot for all consoles or just one in particular?

Wipe Out HD looks stunning. There is a different difference between 1080p and 720p. Depending on ones preference it may not matter.

720p is fine with me. its just a shame a lot of multiplat games are rendered lower then that.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

Games should be running at 720p60, not 30. 720p60 is the target both HD console makers want their developers to hit.

Shams is right about the limitations of the hardware and memory. It's a balancing act between resolution, framerate, detail, post effects and the needs of the game. A lot of developers try to shoehorn in more post effects to make their game look great, but that can cause the framerate to drop. variable framerates can jar the eye, so most developers lock their framerate at 30 if they cannot lock it at 60.

PS3 games are a little different to the 360 because on the PS3 the Cell can handle a lot of the work that is traditionally done by a GPU. Even though GPUs are highly optimized, some post effects may be better done on the Cell. As developers learn this, and improve we are seeing more and more PS3 games with solid 720p60 framerates and lots of effects/detail on screen. 3D geometry is something that the Cell's SPEs are ideal for, so adding 3D processing to PS3 games has a limited impact.

So as more games go to 720p60, we should see in the future some good results in 3D 720p because of the experience gained using the SPEs to get to true 720p60 now.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
11 years ago

The thing is, people keep saying the PS3 can play games at 1080p and 60fps, but only the simpler games do that. Why couldn't something like GOWIII be at that level? Was it just too expensive?

Even though the textures on Dante's Inferno were nowhere near the level of GOWIII the motion was much smoother at 60fps.

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but i thought Stig said they decided on 30fps because they didn't want us to miss the action.

Maybe it was just an excuse.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

@worlds,

In rough terms it breaks down like this.

1080p60 is 60 2Mpixel frames per second. 720p60 is 60 1Mpixel frames per second.

So purely in terms of the amount of video data and processing involved, 1080p60 is twice the work of 720p60. Most games today have trouble rendering at 720p60 today – regardless of console. A lot of the time developers will drop the resolution to maintain the framerate and so we get sub HD resolutions with 60 frames per second. Some developers have come forward and said they would rather keep the resolution high and drop the framerate, so some games render at 720p30 but look utterly gorgeous. The thing is that the framerate at 30 is fine as long as it's absolutely locked and the game isn't a blur of motion. 30 frames per second works for games that are not insanely quick.

So, to do 1080p60, developers would have to double the amount of work being done, texture sizes would go up and the amount of calculation for particle effects, object tracking and collision detection would all go up. 1080p60 works for games that use simpler textures or in the rare instance where a developer has literally worked for years to perfect their game engine to run at 1080p for their specific game (GT5 for example).

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
11 years ago

That's kinda what I thought, I just wonder if our favorite system could handle the kind of output they keep saying it is capable of. And I wonder, since devving games is already extremely expensive, if we will ever routinely cross the threshold into 1080p with 60fps or if it just isn't doable because of time and expense. In which case gaming will stall and no longer advance graphicswise.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

With the right game and the right optimization 1080p60 is doable. But it's a huge load on the system. In most instances a game that actually renders at 1080i is rendering the equivalent of a full 1080p frame, just at half the frame rate. Unless a game requires break neck speed, if it can render at 1080i, you will see no practical difference between 1080i and 1080p. 1080i60 is effectively 1920×1080 @ 30 frames per second, which is as good or better than a BluRay movie. I honestly don't think people will complain about games that manage 1080i60. 1080p60 would be sexy as all get out, but very hard to do with current hardware, and compared to 1080i60 the difference is small.

DjEezzy
DjEezzy
11 years ago

I'm honestly totally into the 3d movement. The picture is unlike what you see at the movies. Close, but watching a bluray on a 3d plasma was absolutely amazing. The picture was so much better than what you see at the theatre. The detail is outstanding. Ever since i saw that i've been trying to get rid of both of my 42 LCD's. So so i could get just one 3d tv. Believe me when i tell you that it really isn't a gimmick. I seriously have an itch to play a 3d game now. LOL

Crabba
Crabba
11 years ago

Well, with the exception of Wipeout HD, aren't practically ALL PS3 games 720p already?? So since basically all PS3 games already max out at 720p it's not exactly surprising that games with the addition of 3D (which could as much as double the amount of processing required) would not be able to handle 1080p.

The more important question is: will new 3D capable games be able to handle 720p with the same amount of graphics detail as without 3D, most likely not…

Qubex
Qubex
11 years ago

Nope, there are a few games that can be rendered natively 1080p.

A couple of the PSN titles (besides WipeOut HD), and some of the AAA games like GT5 for example.

Soldner X, Trine, Super Stardust HD are 1080p native from what I can tell too…

Highlander will probably have a decent idea of some of the games that do in-fact render at 1080p natively. The above are the ones I remember off hand.

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"


Last edited by Qubex on 7/16/2010 1:44:06 PM

Shams
Shams
11 years ago

The way to have your ps3 upscale your games from 720p to 1080p is to go into the Resolutions settings under the Display settings, deselect 720p, and select 1080p. For some games, you might see a hit on the performance (more frequent slow-down) but their are quite a few that play just fine with no noticeable hit.

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

Not all games will upscale if you do this. A great many of them actually downscale to 480p instead. Kinda crappy. I only have a couple in my collection that actually upscale. I've tested it on all of my games. Most downscale.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

What Shams said. Or at least MGS4 ran at 1080p when I did that, so I assume that it works for most, if not all games.

Peace.

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

MGS4 should run at 1080p without forcing it to upscale. It does on my TV.

And it doesn't work for all games. RE5 downscales, Uncharted 2 downscales etc. As i said most games in my collection downscale to 480p.

Would be nice if it worked for all games but it doesn't unfortunately.


Last edited by Jawknee on 7/16/2010 2:15:23 PM

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

@ Jawknee,
The cutscenes displayed natively at 1080p, but in game it ran at 720p until I turned the option off. I don't really know what to make of that.

Peace.

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

For MGS4?

If i hit the info button on my TV it will tell me the resolution and its 1080p 100% of the time unforced.

Weird that its not doing it for you. Maybe its the difference in TV's? Some TV's upscale too do they not?


Last edited by Jawknee on 7/16/2010 2:31:31 PM

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
11 years ago

Don't ask me, every time it switched between the two I got an info box popping up saying it had changed resolutions. Probably is the TV, but whatever eh, still works just fine.

Peace.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
11 years ago

Well, actually the PS3 can scale, there is a scaler built in, but it's not accessible to the user. Sham's advice is correct for the PS3 when displaying the XMB, PS Store and web brower, or viewing video. However when running a game, the hardware ignores the user's resolution setting (to an extent).

What happens is that if the game renders at 720p, and the PS3 is set to only display 1080p, the game will render at 720p, send the 720p video feed out the HDMI and the TV will upconvert the 720p to 1080p. If you leave the 1080i option ticked, many games have the ability to render in 720p and scale the image to 1080i for display. In this case the PS3 will actually output the game in 1080i, though your TV will again upconvert to 1080p. Remember 1080p is a superset of 720p, that is a screen that can handle a 1080p feed can implicitly handle a 720p feed. If for any reason the TV connected to the PS3 doesn't handle 720p the console should revert to 480p automatically, and all PS3 games are required to be capable of switching to a 480p output.

Let me re-iterate. The display resolution selected in the XMB system settings is only valid for the XMB, PS Store, web browser and DVD/BluRay playback. Gmaes override that setting with whatever they netively render at, and can upscale to several different modes depending on what the developer has decided to do. You cannot force your PS3 to upscale a 720p game into 1080p. That up-conversion is performed by your TV.

*ALL* 1080p capable TVs automatically up-scale HD video sources to fill the screen. In other words they all up-convert to 1080p. 1080i sources are de-interlaced so they also appear to be 1080p. The fact that the 360 has a scaler built into it that the user can control is actually pretty pointless.


Last edited by TheHighlander on 7/16/2010 3:25:54 PM

Jawknee
Jawknee
11 years ago

So what causes it to downscale to 480p when your TV is a 1080p set?

For example, i unchecked everything but 1080p and when i turn RE5 or Uncharted 2 on it downcales to 480p. My TV is capable of 1080p.

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