I'll probably regret asking this, but I feel it's a legitimate question and one that's essentially unavoidable.

As most of us know, the protagonist in the upcoming Assassin's Creed III is part Native American (and part British). Now, for the most part, I think this would be viewed as a positive thing from the Native community. I asked someone of Native descent about this, and she said that provided the presentation of the character is done in a tasteful and informed way, it's definitely a good thing. She said there just aren't enough Native American role models out there.

It's certainly true that Connor should be viewed as a role model. But you can bet the mainstream media and just about every trailer you see will show him ripping into someone with his tomahawk. The associations that pop into some people's heads may result in some backlash, and I'm just wondering if this will be a big deal… Do most Natives believe what I perceive to be the common sense response, in that if it's done correctly, those of Native descent should be proud? Or is it risky – and in bad taste – to show a half-"Indian" character stalking white European human prey with a bow and arrow and tomahawk?

Maybe it won't be an issue. But these days, if there's even the smallest chance of creating some sort of cultural hullabaloo, it'll likely happen.

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Freedom Or Fire
Freedom Or Fire
8 years ago

I think if Connor looked like "Ten Bears" from "The Outlaw Josey Wales" movie,there may be a backlash to some degree. But I think everything will be cool with it. Looking forward to it.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

I don't think it will come up, if it does it will just be the slight kerfuffle that AC1 got for presenting early Jerusalem's cultures that was dealt with via disclaimer.

Killa Tequilla
Killa Tequilla
8 years ago

Your avatar is weird

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

You're right, I need to think of something else.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

There we go.

Killa Tequilla
Killa Tequilla
8 years ago

Lol, who is that?

Beamboom
Beamboom
8 years ago

Sherlock?

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

Yup, got to represent 🙂

everett102
everett102
8 years ago

I'm half native and I think it's alright.

matt99
matt99
8 years ago

There shouldn't be a problem with it as I've never thought the AC series represented any culture or race badly. Having said that, if the media hears about this on a slow news day they will run with it and manufacture a giant controversy.

Hopefully the US election keeps them busy.

karneli lll
karneli lll
8 years ago

I dont think anyone would look up to video game characters as role models. Honestly, i suspect there will be nothing native american in the game except the character's name.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

I'm doubtful of that. Native Americans also have a story to tell about that time in history and it's hard to believe Ubi would ignore it after making it a part of the main character.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

People have been looking up or idolizing characters in books, plays, folklore, and more for millennium after millennium. How many races of people have their own fictitious stories meant to inspire their children and even adults?

I don't think it's strange to look up to a strong willed character at all… Especially one with a story human enough to believe in.

The Greeks were famous for such stories.

tes37
tes37
8 years ago

A fictional character in a video game should be viewed as fiction and nothing more.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

Well, fictitious characters can be used for far more than just that, though, don't you think?

MyWorstNightmar
MyWorstNightmar
8 years ago

IMO no. Not in 2012, and not in a video game.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

yeah, but you're just being narrowminded. :p

I disagree. I think there's a lot to observe in a character like those in Heavy Rain and even in a character like Nathan Drake or Kratos. Despite being almost extra-human, they have human elements that develop their characters that anyone with a mind should be able to relate to on some level.

I also find it humorous that people say things like "Not by today's standards" or "Not in modern day with the science we have" or "Not in 2012 or whatever year it is".

People have been saying that for as long as stories have been told. ESPECIALLY in the middle-ages onwards into the age of enlightenment. It's funny because it's always been wrong. Sometimes fictitious stories are perfect for setting a stage precisely in a way we can relate to and learn from. You can create a stage that shows a realistic humanity about a character in tailored situations.

It's why books, plays, nursery rhymes, and fairy tales are still told today and they still carry weight. They don't just "entertain"… they help shape people. And that's not an opinion. That's straight up university level fact, friend.

And that's a fact. Just because you refuse to look for meaning in everything in life is no excuse to write something off as meaningless. That's incredibly narrow-minded.


Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/14/2012 10:25:19 AM

MyWorstNightmar
MyWorstNightmar
8 years ago

I was referring to video game characters being looked up to as a role model.

I'm not even sure how a video game character can be used as a role model. And if I ever found someone who did use one as a role model, I would remind them (as tes said) that they are a fictional character in a video game and should be viewed as nothing more.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

Five positive fictional role models for young girls:

http://voices.yahoo.com/five-positive-fictional-role-models-little-girls-1486943.html

This one is more fun, as I'm not sure I agree with most of them, but the top 100 fictional male role models!

http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/100_Fictional_Male_Role_Models

But i think, especially for young girls, some fictional role models can be very influential. In a society who's real life role models include famous actresses and singers that are sexy, sometimes a fictional character can display a better idea of how our girls should grow up. Characters like Nancy Drew or that girl from Harry Potter (don't remember her name. Hermoine or hermonie or whatever)

Fictional characters, when well done, can often set an important standard teaching our kids the importance of hard work, enduring hard and trying times, and kindness.

Here's an excellent article outlining another good reason to disagree with you:

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/EJ787934.pdf

It really should not, therefore, be difficult to see how a well developed character in a video game could not be used as a positive role model. Of course, they never replace an excellent adult role model involved directly in a child's life, but everyone needs more than one role model. Even adults. Why can't a fictional character serve as a great additional role model? I think our young women need it especially.

Unfortunately for males, I would argue that most fictional characters are shown to be strong and silent… not strong and gentle. Nevertheless, positive fictional role models exist. And kids look up to characters real or fake whether you want to admit it or not. So yes. It matters.


Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/14/2012 1:42:54 PM

MyWorstNightmar
MyWorstNightmar
8 years ago

If I am to respond to your comment, then I agree with you, fictional literary characters can be a benefit in someones life. But if that was your point, I would have been in your corner as I already agree with that point. That wasn't the point of the article of which I was commenting. We are talking about Connor, a video game character. Not fictional characters that you read a story in a book about.

I am referring to a video game character that you yourself take control of and play out the actions of that person. Big difference. You seem convinced that a video game character can be a role model. I do not. Your arguement is that fictional characters in literature and theater can be, but I don't disagree with that opinion.

You gave me an article that outlines reasons you disagree with me. It mentioned nothing about video game characters.

To support your arguement, wouldn't there have to be a new IP for a video game to come out that would be a Nancy Drew type character? You couldn't take an existing character from novels and make a video game out of it, becuase the character would then already exist with already known character traits, etc. I don't see that ever happening. So until it does, my opinion will stay put. Maybe you have a character in mind that is a video game character?

As for the reference you used for male role models was obviously done tongue in cheek (and you already know that since you said it was more for fun).


Last edited by MyWorstNightmar on 5/14/2012 3:32:33 PM

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

I think you missed the part where I said the male part was more for fun and that I didn't actually agree with many of them. Then I directed back to the impact fictional characters can have on females especially.

And no, not all of those examples were literary. See: Lisa Simpson or Mulan. Now you're in the realm of entertainment, and the lines between television and gaming start to become blurred. Especially in games with good story-telling. How about the protagonist in Nier? The great lengths he goes through to care for his daughter. He has the ability to be strong and courageous, as well as gentle and loving. That's a good male role model from a character stand point, if you ask me.

not once in either of the two more meaningful articles do they differentiate between literary fiction and "other" fiction. In fact, their examples aren't even exclusively from literary works. Heck, one author spends some time describing her favorite fictional role model in her life as helping shape who she has become from a comic book and television series!


Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/14/2012 3:25:41 PM

MyWorstNightmar
MyWorstNightmar
8 years ago

Sorry, you read my commnet before I was done with it. I do acknowledge theatrical characters as well.

I want to make it clear I am referring to video game characters.

As for Nier, haven't played it. To use him as an example of how to take care of your child, I suppose? That is an M game, supposed to be played by adults. Do they need that video game character to show how to take care of your child? That just reminds me of a Chris Rock bit. (very offensive, so i'll try to clean it up.) "A **** will say some sh** like, "I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb mother******! What kind of ignorant sh** is that? "I ain't never been to jail!" What do you want, a cookie?! You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having mother******!"

Justover6
Justover6
8 years ago

As for books and fairytales, it's almost impossible not to look up to a fictional character in there. Fairytales for children are meant to have morals. A book HAS to have a moral, it's part of the process to writing a book. Because after you write a book, you have to go back and say, what is this book about.

Top five women were either side characters, or older than dirt.

Top 100 male role models… they were just bad ass people you want to be like, not someone you should look up to. In fact that's a list of why males don't have positive role models 0.e come on Eric Cartman is on there!

tes37
tes37
8 years ago

I agree with MyWorstNightmar and I understand where you're coming from Underdog, but in this case, the character isn't presented in a role model form. I mean, he's not being developed specifically for that purpose. Using fictional characters to set an example or teach lessons is fine, but this isn't what the character is used for. He's an assassin.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

Ah, but the best fictional role models are the ones that aren't trying to be role models! They are the ones that have struggles like anyone else, and deal with them head on. They're the ones with good overall values of family, justice, and equality. They don't give up in the face of adversity and just do what they think is right.

Nancy Drew or Anne Shirley, for example, who are stated regularly as excellent female role models for young girls, are not acting the way they act for the sake of being a good role model. They simply live life their own way. And it's their approach to life that makes them role models. They do not attempt to be so.

@Justover
Again, like I said twice already and now 3 times, the male thing was meant for fun… just like I said BEFORE the link. lol

And what top 5 characters are side characters or old as dirt?!?! lol!!! Lisa Simpson is the only "side" character, and I would argue she is one of the main characters. Anne Shirley is "Anne of Green Gables." Most of her story is as a little girl and teenager. Mulan would have been in her late teen years. Nancy Drew is a young 12-14 year old girl… All young, not old, and all main characters… not side.

Not sure what you're talking about.

As for the rest of your point, you aren't describing the point of a book… you're describing the point of ANY story. And story can be told through many mediums.

None of you have provided any good reason to counter my point aside from the fact you guys feel games can't portray stories as well as other entertainment mediums.


Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/15/2012 8:59:20 AM

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

@MyWorstNightmare

Here is the first link I found for good video game role models like you requested. Not really gonna look for any other ones at this point as this thread is over a day old now:

http://www.technologytell.com/gaming/32400/eight-great-vieogame-role-models-for-women

Justover6
Justover6
8 years ago

I know you said it was for fun, but the irony is, some of them on there are our video game role models, contemporary ones too, that's why we keep bringing it up. And none of them are REAL role models.

Sorry, when I said old as dirt for the girls, I meant to say it in terms of when they were created. Anne of Green Gables was published in like 1908. That's a WHOLE different argument though; current vs old.

To be honest, no one's saying that video games can't have real role models. We're saying in todays video games there aren't a lot. Now were I disagree with you is when you imply that because you can pull something or relate to a character like Kratos or Drake, it makes them a role model in some way. I can't accept that. We don't get role models from the abstract. We get role models for what they do.

Kratos was a war mongrel, he killed people, he lost then cheated, then he killed even more people, then he accidentally killed his family while killing people, then he swore revenge, killed some more people and beast, got revenge, then he tried to kill himself and failed miserably. Yeah, we can say Kratos cried over his family and we should take something from that, but that doesn't make him anywhere close to a role model.

Now take MGS3's Naked Snake, at the beginning of that game they have a 30min discussion with his mentor on what it means to be right and wrong as a soldier and ultimately what you represent. Then as the game wines down he faces his mentor in an emotional battle of weather he should stand for his friends, or what he represents. And ultimately chooses to stand for what he represents. That's a role model.

This is why I brought up the books and fairytales having to have morals while video games don't. Because you can play something like Devil May Cry and realize there is no story what so ever. It's not about father issues, or devils crying, or love, or finding out his mothers killer, etc. Same thing with some movies to, like transformers 2, they run around the movie for an hour not knowing what is going on until the army tells them everything.

Sir Shak
Sir Shak
8 years ago

If Connor is not allowed to eat his victims, I would be personally offended, speaking as a disturbed human being.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
8 years ago

Sometimes I feel bad for Appalachian hillbillies. They never ever have good PR.

tes37
tes37
8 years ago

With good PR, they would be upgraded from hillbillies to mountain men.

gray_eagle
gray_eagle
8 years ago

its Ubi, not R*/T2 so there'll be no backlash.

PHOENIXZERO
PHOENIXZERO
8 years ago

*Shrug* All the Native Americans I know don't care for the term "Native American" and tend to prefer American Indian if not their ethnic/tribal origin.

As long as it's respectful I don't see anyone complaining. I'm sure there will be a good deal Mohawk involvement due to the location and their role in the American Revolutionary War and a good portion of Conner's inner and outer conflict with other Mohawk (who were involved and fought on the British side due to treaties in place) will probably play out in the story. They won't be villains and probably be shown in a sympathetic light over all.

matt99
matt99
8 years ago

It's pretty weird actually, natives in the US like to be called indians while the natives in Canada get offended by indian and like to be called natives. I've never figured that one out.

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

@Matt

Very true. My aunt is MicMac. She's pretty easy going and doesn't care what you call her, tbh. But she tells her kids it's respectful to say Native or by the tribal name. (Canadian, of course)

AshT
AshT
8 years ago

No, we dont need that

Justover6
Justover6
8 years ago

There's going to be complaining. The "problem" is you won't really notice it, because we kind of wiped them out almost thoroughly. Like with GUN, a group or two boycotted the game for the scalping I think. But no one noticed.

If you really want to find out how people feel, you'll have to wait for SC4 when Conner becomes half Black in the civil war. There are more people to complain in that area.


Last edited by Justover6 on 5/14/2012 2:44:28 AM

AcHiLLiA
AcHiLLiA
8 years ago

What is SC4? or do u mean AC4.

Justover6
Justover6
8 years ago

AC4

___________
___________
8 years ago

i dunno if they would be happy seeing them being portrayed as someone who leaps around trees like a frog brutally killing everything in sight.
kill what you need to in other words, its a bit obsessive and well, the kills are not exactly in best taste.
but hey its a game, games have never meant to be historical recreations!
if you want accuracy and authenticity go to hollywood!
😉

Neo_Aeon666
Neo_Aeon666
8 years ago

Mmm well I would wait to see the full game. I doubt they will all be like Connor (the Natives). I think he is an exception you know.(who is half and half btw). So if there is any backlash at all… It will be surrounding the whole story and how the Indians in the game act.

Also even if some half/half natives picture themselves as Connor… I do not see how this could be bad. The guy is a badass who will change history 😀 The part about killing any1 in sight is up to the player. You could only kill the required targets.


Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 5/14/2012 8:45:23 AM

Gamer Girl Gemo
Gamer Girl Gemo
8 years ago

Well… He kinda is an assassin, for one thing…

People would be more racist if they were to claim that based on what Connor does in this game that all Native Americans would do this. By calling it out, which I have no doubt someone might, it's just making them look as though they're over generalizing something that looks over generalized to them, but in reality, it's not. So, basically, it won't look bad until someone gets all flustered about it.

___________
___________
8 years ago

exactly my problem, nah the media is not known for getting over flustered about anything……..
really, do people have that short a memory?
you dont even need to light a match these days, just look at someone funny and they already thrown the flaming machete at you!

Sogi_Otsa
Sogi_Otsa
8 years ago

I like it. but also the British should be madder, it's looking like I'll be killing them more. who cares, it happened in the time period of the game anyway.


Last edited by Sogi_Otsa on 5/14/2012 7:27:46 AM

newchef
newchef
8 years ago

maybe its just me but asking this is kinda like asking what italians thought of Ezio? right…

Underdog15
Underdog15
8 years ago

No. there's a lot of underlying centuries old issues to consider, actually. Enough that tact will be necessary. Some old wounds still haven't healed for some people.

PC_Max
PC_Max
8 years ago

Let them bring up the issue if it exists. Why should you or we go looking for a news story if so far its not there. Lets not try to create news.

That said… all depends on how much Ubi focus on his Native heritage and culture. The natives were brutalized in the US and that knowledge has carried down through the generations. What I am sure is how much Ubi exploits the Native culture, specifically the which Native people/tribe the character comes from. Another aspect is how did he come to have a NAtive and Brit family.. and I won't go there unless Ubi does because the circumstances could be explosive… or not.

You roll the dice, Ubi takes a chance.

It might be easier to ask Brit people what they think of the anti-Brit aspect of the game. There is a mix. Some see it as such and others say what does one expect. Thus far everything I have seen has been too predictable. If it comes down to killing brits and thats is… I will be disappointed. The others AC games had us killing pretty much everyone on both sides, because both sides had corruption or blind obedience. Hopefully we get to kill some Americans as well who are working for the Templars… as long as the assassination are needed .. um for the good on humankind. 🙂

Still though.. not seen anything so far that impresses me about the game. Its looking a bit like some areas in Red Dead Redemption and that got too repetitive as well.

Lets hope this game is not too predictable, because it has been so far in screenshots and trailers.

Keep Playing!

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
8 years ago

I would think they would rather be more occupied with wondering why Johnny Depp is playing Tonto in the Lone Ranger movie.

AcHiLLiA
AcHiLLiA
8 years ago

I don't know never asked them.

Phoelix
Phoelix
8 years ago

It's important to understand that Connor does not represent all native peoples – just like Duke Nukem doesn't represent all white people. We can't expect one person (or fictional character) to completely embody a heritage.

We'll run into trouble if we assume that all natives behave like Connor. That being said, some people are going to do exactly that (assume everyone from a native tribe acts like Connor), and that's why the issue is somewhat touchy.

Justover6
Justover6
8 years ago

Actually he does, it's important to remember that Duke Nukem doesn't represent white people because there is Dante, Kratos, Nat Drake, Nathan Hale, Neo, Tidus, Jak, Sam Fisher, Spiderman, Wolverine, Batman, Marcus, Issaic, Max Payne, Mr.47, takes a breather.

The reason Connor will represent all Native American people is because they only have, Gun, Red Dead, and the Tauren from WoW