Ben-DutkaAs always, a necessary disclaimer before I begin:
In no way is this article meant to be sexist. It is merely a series of observations and nothing more.
Now, while some statistics will have you believe that half of all gamers are female, those who play on a frequent basis know the truth of the matter. Those stats typically include anything that can be called a "video game," including apps, Solitaire on the computer, etc. If you hang around your local GameStop for an hour and count up the customers, you'll find that the ratio of men to women is still about 10 to 1, if not higher in favor of the males. The women buying for their boyfriends or husband don't count.
That isn't to say that more women aren't playing games, because clearly, they are. However, I think gaming may always be more appealing to males, simply due to the interactive nature of the hobby. It has nothing to do with reactions or chemical superiority or anything like that; it's merely a chemical difference . There are those out there who desperately try to prove there's no difference at all between men and women, which I deem entirely absurd; those differences are what make life worth living, damnit. If we were all the same, I'd be so bored I'd be suicidal.
But anyway, the point is this- If we are interacting with something, we're making things happen. In turn, those events need to be interesting enough to hold our attention. It's a proactive thing; there's very little passivity involved. So in other words, a game about gardening that has you press a few buttons wouldn't be all that popular, even among avid gardeners. Why emulate that hobby when it's vastly more entertaining in reality? The point of gaming is to be involved in a fantasy, in that which we can't do in reality, and yeah, that usually includes a lot of impossible action.
And in turn, action tends to appeal mostly to males. In the world of movies, the entire hobby is 100% passive. And that's why a sappy romance could do as well at the box office as a blockbuster action flick. Think about turning the action movie and the romance story into video games…even those more interested in the romance wouldn't really care about pressing a button to control a slow dance or a kiss, would they? On the flip side, controlling the crazy action – which of course, none of us could ever do in real life – might seem like fun. It's just a matter of what humans generally find entertaining and fascinating.
Obviously, you'd say this argument falls apart if women are just as interested as men in action and adventure-related stuff. …but you can't say that, because of course, it isn't true. It's just not the way we're made. There are some women out there who prefer the action but the majority…? Never. And as long as interactive entertainment remains focused on the totally unfeasible fantasies, and so long as those fantasies involve traditionally "guy" stuff, gaming will always be dominated by men.
I hope readers understand what I'm getting at here. I really don't need a bunch of hate mail from people who didn't read a word beyond the headline…that bugs the snot out of me. But I'm always interested to hear intelligent feedback from those who read the piece and are civil-minded. Thanks. 🙂
Funny… Once Skyrim came out I heard of a couple of girls gaming that I would not have suspected. That game is truly amazing which is also why you have even the majority CoD & Sports (non)gamer picking it up.
I think it also has to do with girls not realizing what some games are capable of such as telling great and captivating stories.
One other thing I suspect is, the simple fact that the specific skill set that games require (or used to anyway before the majority became way to forgiving) is just something males are better at. I'm not claiming superiority at all! These are merely just fundamental differences in how the majority of males and females observe, think, and solve situations.
If you ever heard the stereotype that men are generally better than females at mathematics and thought it was just a sexist comment, unfortunately you are wrong. Granted, that's not to say there isn't a female out there that cannot prove any chaotic math theories just as well and even better than any man.
EDIT: There is also another huge argument with Nature vs Nurture. I suspect that with the explosion of the casual gaming market and the more unisex appearance of the gaming industry, future generations will see that ratio begin to even out… Whether it will ever be equal is another big point to ponder!
Last edited by laxpro2001 on 3/25/2012 9:55:08 PM
Case in point, I was at a party last night with a pretty diverse group of individuals. At one point in one of the groups I was currently hanging with got onto the topic of games (and yeah I steered it a few directions) but I immediately noticed the females about glazing over. I tuned into their conversation briefly and caught "When they start taking about games we just tune out don't we?"
I'm thinkin, okay games are decent party conversation but not if you want to keep most of the women nearby.
And don't expect that to change any time soon.
What a damn shame! I thought the world had changed a bit… I guess it hasn't.
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
dunno about that.
on my way back from a meeting today i stopped into my cuzs house have not seen her for a while and instead of doing her uni work like she was suppose to she was playing halo.
@Qubex
What do you mean? Instead of "world" did you mean that all women are not only equal to men (they are) but are of equal mind as well? (They aren't and never will be)
Men and women are and always have been different. We balance each other's weaknesses out to make a more functional species. There are always exceptions to the rule, but as a whole gaming is not a feminine experience. Most games aren't even marketed towards a female demographic to begin with.
Even games that -would- appeal to women are marketed to men.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/26/2012 9:51:14 AM
Hehe, no, I wasn't meaning "World" as in the context of "World" himself… I was talking about the wide world in general.
I must say this though… even though girls that play quick games on their mobile devices would not fit in the category of the hardcore gamer, at least they are playing something…
The more smart phones are sold the more girls are exposed to "games"… I think there will be some sort of influence…
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
Last edited by Qubex on 3/27/2012 2:32:01 AM
agree with the article….
I know there are girl gamers out there, but i have yet to meet any personally.
A very, very common statement among male gamers…should tell us something.
Lol! Yes, so true…
Why doesn't someone create a social networking site for gamers specifically, with the specific intention of attracting girl gamers to get involved…
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
I've met loads of women on the PSN network. Albeit, they're always playing the game their boyfriend or husband turned them on to.
I know of 2 girls that game but all they play is Call of Duty. I woulda thought they'd be into something with a bit of a story. Interesting conclusions for my research ; )
@Qubex
I think the women that are out there try to hide a bit.
90% of the time I've ever run into a girl gamer online, some other prick starts belittling them, calling them cute names, being sexist, or downright sexually harassing them.
A social networking site that seeks to bring out girl gamers would probably result in the same thing… prickish, childish boys trying to flirt or something like that.
the only female gamer i've ever met personally is my cousin we used to play GTA alot back in the PS2 era..
i recall seeing alot of female avatars roaming around PS home although i always suspected most were just dudes in their basement messin with people.
as far as finding any online surprisingly i always found some in.. you ready for this ? RE5! yea RE5 i used to play mercenaries and versus and found women all the time (they had headsets so i know for sure xD
Underdog, that is quite true on many occasions!
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
I often play as a female when I have a choice. of course, most of the time, it's because RPG's give females a stronger base magic stat than male characters, and I like to be a magic user. :p
In WKC2, I know myself, along with a few other guys from PSXE play with female avatars.
I find what Stabs88 said to be sad. I wish that more girls would play, because it's FUN. That's the whole point. But apparently, of everyone I know, I'm the only girl who likes the Uncharted series, Elder Scrolls, Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Saints Row, Mass Effect (do I have to keep going) all at once. It almost seems as if some of them think they're "too good" to play video games. Whatever. I don't care what the other people of my gender are doing. I need to blast people's faces off virtually every once in a while. But I do agree with this article. Girls just don't seem to like video games as much.
You know what I would love to see. A full Grand Theft Auto game (maybe GTA6) where the central character was a woman. GTA4 proved that Rockstar is capable of creating incredibly compelling, multi-dimensional characters whose motivations and ethics that can change over the course of a story. How would a female version of Niko play out in that world and, more importantly, could her story be the game that brings in the female players for the long run. Don't just factor in the violence, but think about friendships, relationships, business decisions and everything else that has been represented in a GTA game thus far.
While I do agree that gaming (at least the hardcore aspect of it) will remain a male-dominated activity for at least the immediate future, I don't know if that has to do with how we (men and women) are made as opposed to the product itself. I remember reading an article awhile back that questioned why most protagonists in video games are almost always Caucasian males. One of the answers given was that these characters were being tailored to the markets that were playing these games as a way to ensure high sales. Another reason (one that I've also heard from Hollywood writers) was that it is easier to create narratives from your own perspective than it is from others, therefore making it easier to come up with a story centered around a male protagonist or antagonist if you are a guy.
Personally, I don't buy any of these reason as they just seem like convenient excuses. Part of the problem is that when games (and movies) with female protagonist are made and they sell poorly, the creators blame the lack of a market for female gamers as opposed to the quality of the product. I don't necessarily believe that a female-led GTA would be the game that would bring in the ladies, but I'm fairly positive that it won't be a Tomb Raider game, a sequel to Wet or a movie/television spinoff like that Desperate Housewives game. Maybe it's possible to make an action-oriented game with female leads and a STRONG story that is compelling enough to keep female gamers invested in what's going on long enough to see the game thru. This is probably going to involve the industry as a whole being experimental and creative; two things that sadly they are very eager to do with the rising costs of games and all.
My guess is that an indie developer will come up with this game, probably a woman.
I meant to say "two things that sadly they are NOT very eager to do with the rising costs of games and all".
This article is out of touch. I don't need the women in my life who play games to tell me this either. Not for down the track, in the present as well.
Out of touch? Because me and a dozen people I know who have been playing games for 20 years have basically never met any girl who has any interest in games, and because you happen to know a few?
Or because you just missed the entire point of the article?
@Ben
The latter.
@Smokey
I didn't read anything in the article that is devoid of truth. I know Ben is a psych. major, and I studied it as well with my second undergraduate degree. Any psych. student could tell you that despite men and women being equal in society, they are absolutely not wired the same way. Not even close. Men and women simply respond to… well… pretty much everything completely differently. And there very much -IS- a chemical component as estrogen and testosterone are both directly linked to very different emotional compartments of our brains.
It's literally science.
Sure, there are exceptions to the rule as even within each gender, no two people are identical, but they are not the majority. Typically speaking, games are dominated by men. Even games that might be appealing to women are marketed to men…
Why? Because they represent the largest share of the market.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/26/2012 9:59:22 AM
I don't happen to know a few, quite more than a few actually. They game harder than I do, and even have a wider interest in so called "nerdier" fields than me like tabletop wargames. Disclaimer or not, this is crap Ben, pure crap. Sorry. I would expect PSX to move on at least of this talk of a male centric gaming view but obviously not.
Everyone plays games, that's the point, young, old, male, female in the modern times we're in. You can talk about marketing, numbers throw them all you like at me but in the end, your just throwing stuff which is deflecting that key point which everyone should be embracing.
He thinks he's being all diplomatic but in the end, he's still being a prick. We're out there, playing our damn games too…
That's just a friend of mine's sentiment right there Ben, funnily enough a female. Who plays games *gasp*
Why are you establishing yourself as a moron and an abrasive child? Neither one of us were rude to you.
Both Ben and I know girl gamers. But they simply ARE NOT the majority. You -CANNOT- refute that. I don't know why in the world you think we are saying "girls don't game". You're totally stereotyping the article. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Even if every person in the world you knew was a girl that gamed, that would still account for less than 1% of all gamers out there.
So you know a lot of girls that game. Good for you. I (and ben apparently) are just the opposite. Most of the girls we know aren't into games.
And there's the difference… your evidence is your experience, while our evidence is our experience…. AND market research that tells video game personnel in public relations that they need to market to the largest demographic which is MALE between certain ages.
Either way, you've got nothing substantial to support your claim whereas we have countless years of psychological research that has told us men and women ARE in fact different, even though they are equal along with concrete facts in market research.
Know what kinds of video games are marketed to women? Facebook games are marketed to women. What's funny, is that if I used your line of reasoning, I would conclude that someone is a prick because guys play facebook games too! But the fact is, while thousands and thousands of girls game, statistically speaking, they remain in the minority. And there are good reasons for that.
Remember, about 52% of the world's population is women. Shouldn't MORE women be playing games? Or maybe… there really is a difference between men and women.
As for your friend, just because she's a girl speaking about girl gamers doesn't mean she's not an idiot. Either she didn't read the article in it's entirety, or her reading comprehension skills are left wanting.
I fully believe men and women are equal. Which means, I can be honest. She's incredibly foolish.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/26/2012 1:09:19 PM
By the way, my wife is a very well liked person. She has many more friends than I have, and she is admired by many. She has a lot of well educated female friends who are all very social, active, and non-prejudiced. Most of them aren't against games.
And according to HER…. she doesn't know ANY woman her age that games. Guys? Well, nearly all her friends' boyfriends or husbands.
And she isn't against games either. Probably because of me, but she recognizes the artistic potential games have and she sees why I would like it. Totally not against it. But she agrees… most girls aren't into games. She sees how some can be, but most… ya, no.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/26/2012 1:12:59 PM
I just went out front at the youth centre I work at. These youth are between ages 15-29, and there are 14 out there right now. 8 are girls. Only 1 of them plays video games on their own, while an additional 2 play only if their boyfriend wants them to, but "they suck".
These youth, in contrast to my wife and her friends, are not well educated. Most don't even have high school. So a completely different demographic within the same age range? Ya…. most girls don't play.
ALL 6 GUYS HAVE THEIR OWN CONSOLES.
I'm sorry, Smokey, but your experience is an anomaly. It is not the majority.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/26/2012 1:16:30 PM
I'm 59 now, & in all my decades of gaming, I've yet to find 1 girl/woman/female in person ever, that has said they've gamed.
But on the other hand, I've met a few handfuls online so I do know that they game. And one of the best players I've met was right in KZ3's MP, she constantly mopped the floor with her skills, always taking over one of the top spots on the leader-board whenever she played a match.
Hell, this chick was so good, I'd sometimes follow her just so I could learn how to up some of my own skills & stats.
Last edited by BikerSaint on 3/26/2012 1:38:56 PM
Smokey: Your female friend isn't very bright, or didn't read the article.
You can't really be this obtuse. You're not actually stupid enough to believe that your own personal experience dictates fact, do you? Would you care to take me up on my offer, concerning the customers at GameStop? Want to stand outside all day and count them up? If you honestly think there'd be just as many female customers as males, you simply don't live in the real world.
Oh but wait, I suppose BikerSaint is just a prick, too, because he's been playing games for longer than any of us and has yet to meet a girl gamer outside the bounds of the Internet. Care to know why? Well, the sad fact is, you know nerd girls. He probably doesn't and never did. And I don't know many, either.
You want to call it a stereotype, fine. This is the kind of crap we have to deal with in society, with people claiming "everyone is the same" and "everybody likes the same things equally," as if it's all one big politically correct contest. There are lots of men out there who love fashion, too. Is an inordinate number of them somewhat… effeminate when compared to guys who work on motorcycles in their garage and go to football games? Um, yeah. Does it mean they ALL are the same way? Of course not.
Doesn't really mean anything and nobody is making rash generalizations. We're merely talking about the way things are. And as you have yet to provide one solid shred of evidence to the contrary (besides useless anecdotal stories), and you haven't even been civil enough to offer an INTELLIGENT rebuttal, I'd strongly suggest you just stop talking. You and your genius friend there.
You never once addressed a single point I made in the piece above. Not one.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 3/26/2012 3:41:40 PM
Yeah it will probably always be, but it's cool that the number of females who are playing now is growing, and I don't mean playing games like Angry Birds.
It's really cool because before I never had any girl friends who gamed but you meet them now.
You're probably right, and I can't say that I've yet met a woman that called herself a gamer. I have, however, met several women that are more than willing to give GTA, COD, Sonic and Burnout a run, among other games. It certainly isn't the majority though.
Also, I'd love to see a game based solely around a romance, Heavy Rain-style.
i really cant understand the whole most girls dont play games stereotype because in my experience thats just not true!
hell 2 out of 3 local EB stores to me their managers are girls, and they play more games then me!
That's exactly what it is… A stereotype…
Maybe if the boys/men who gamed grew up a bit more they would feel a bit more comfortable of say coming on forums with greater frequency, turning the mic on etc.
What's funny, Smokey, is that you somehow think we are oblivious to that fact.
Perhaps you missed all the articles Ben wrote supporting girl gamers or bashing immature males that drive them away from using mics, etc.?
Of course you did… because the greatest stereotyping going on here is the kind you are portraying… the kind that says "If someone thinks men and women are somehow different, they MUST therefore think one or the other is superior"
But that's wrong.
YOU'RE wrong.
Well I guess I should consider myself lucky as I have known and met a lot of girls that game, and I am talking about real world friends not internet friends which I have also met a lot of.
I have one friend she can beat just about anybody on fighting games, and she never button mashes either. She'll pick about 3 to 5 characters in a fighting game that she likes and master their controls/moves. Another that I haven't talked to in a couple years has played just about every good RPG on the market, Final Fantasy and Persona were her favorite franchises, and she was one of the best artists I have ever seen. She would draw and color in all the characters from the games she liked with exceptional detail. My sister is a GTA, True Crime, and NARC fanatic. When she plays those her language is worse then a drunken sailors, yet when she stops playing them she barely ever swears.
MAG is also one of the only shooters were the female population was really high, not so much now that the numbers have dwindled but there are still a lot of them on there.
I've always hung around with people that play games, so it is only natural that I am going to come across girls that game as well. Some are more hardcore than others and some are very casual. Even my mom is what I would call hardcore. Though she only plays flash style games on the PC, she'll play them for several hours a day sometimes having longer gaming marathons then I do, lol.
My friend's wife is a gamer. She loves video games and computer games, but she also loves outrigger canoeing, and running, and surfing, and…, and…
In contrast, I'm content to just play games for hours and stay indoors.
I wonder if that's part of the reason there are less women gamers out there. They're not as content to just sit in front of a tv for hours. Pure speculation, of course.
Dear Ben.
I've red your article which is so, oh so greatly laid out, the words are simple, feasible and the whole thing shines with intelligence and maturity. LOVE IT!!!
Then still with all that said. Doesn't it seem that, if we all agree on the toppic of "male dominated" as well as "fantasy" or "something impossible in real world" being of more interest than something you "CAN" achieve in the real world.
Why is it the devs keep pushing and hyping the realism of most games. Has our, as consumer, tastes changed so rapidly or is someone messing up on the Research & Development in Games Industry?
As much I hate to say it, the more likely a woman is interested in gaming, the more likely she is 4 feet tall, 3 feet wide, and her hair is several shades of purple. Don't get me wrong, I can see past outer beauty, but there is a limit folks. I'm no prize, but I at least know when to call it quits at a buffet.
Wow, that comment was terrible.
I laughed :[
it was kind'a funny xD
Smokey: Get off your liberal high horse for two seconds and try to address the issue. Maybe then not everything will offend you.
My earliest memory is of playing on Sonic 1 on the Master System with my Mum and Auntie.
I'd say it is a nerd/people with nerd tendancy dominated industry as I know a lot of people who aren't in to games at all or only play FIFA/COD.
To me playing only FIFA/COD/etc is the equivalent of "women" who only play Angry Birds, these people aren't gamers. I think you'd find, although I could be massively wrong, that a decent proportion of people who play proper games are women or girls.
Growing up, all of my female friends played games in some form or another. A female friend of mine in uni would often come round for nostalgia sessions on Crash Bandicoot and my current girlfriend completed Heavy Rain before I even got a chance to play it (and she isn't a nerd by any stretch).
Its all about your perception of what is a gamer.
Last edited by Goten on 3/26/2012 2:01:20 PM
Maybe same reason "hot" girls never played D&D… becuase the second they do all we do is stare and treat them like they are unequal. Remeber all the talk when you interview Jo Garcia ? Alot of "whoa… shes hot. I like to play with her. yada etc."
We as men do treat women different when we game. Just like men are treated different when they knit or have glitter all over them. Im sure alot of women do game. They would just rather not be known. Just as there are men who love glitter they just dont (most of the time) announce it to the world.
Also I think the "stareing" thing cant be over-emphasized. We think of them like unicorns, so when we do see them almost all of our brain cant seem to compute the information. So we satre or constantly remind them we cant believe they exist. Im sure that can wear on a girl.
But case in point is the NFL. Yeah it is a guys sport. But chicks dig the NFL too. And just because the dont know who Walter Payton was or every rule or think Tim Tebow is the best QB ever doesnt mean they arent "fans".
Just like when Ben was interviewing Jo Garcia he asked her questions to "verify" her staus as a gamer. Im sure that girl gets tired of those questions. So I do believe possibly 40% of women game, they would just rather you not know about it.
No. The hot girls didn't play D&D because they were out with their friends. Out with boys. Out in general.
It really had absolutely nothing to do with how the geeks looked at them. Everybody looked at them, including creepy middle-aged men.
The pretty people simply have no need avoid the outside world, and they wouldn't ever want to. Sadly, the way our society works is that many people were branded outsiders simply because of the way they looked and THAT came first. D&D and video games came after, almost as a means of self-defense and coping.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 3/26/2012 3:32:02 PM
"Everybody looked at them, including creepy middle-aged men."
…just Lol'd hard!
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
Most of the girls I know have at least played video games in their childhood but in a sense "grew out of them" as they got older. Heck, I use to watch my older sister and aunt play a good chunk of what was available until they grew older and became interested in other things, like work, socializing, etc.
One good thing to note is the girl gamers online I've met are veeery laid back compared to every other guy who seem to take certain games more serious than one should.
My wife may not be the biggest gamer in the world, but she enjoys a title or two; particularly the Lego games and other various platformers. That being said, she loves the hell out of watching me play pretty much anything I happen to pop into my console. In fact, the other night she was able to coach my cousin (who was playing the new Twisted Metal for the first time) in a game that she had never touched. Beyond that she gets a kick out of – for example – pointing out things that I've overlooked in Skyrim… or Reckoning… or Nier… or whatever else… Point is, though she is not one for directly engaging in a game, she still gets every bit of the thrill I get doing little more than watching.
Hm… can't say that whole spiel necessarily argued the point, but whatever…
I think it supports Ben's point rather nicely about how Women are more interested in passive entertainment, like movies, because it's more likely to be in their DNA to enjoy watching over directly engaging. Passive entertainment vs. Active entertainment, so to speak.