Ben-DutkaMany say Japanese games are lagging behind their Western counterparts. There are arguments for and against that theory but for the most part, it seems obvious.
But in which categories are the Eastern video games falling behind? Well, we could cite graphics but titles like Gran Turismo 5 and Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots make us hesitate. That being said, few would argue that the best visual presentations of the generation are found in Western titles with names like Uncharted , God of War , RAGE , and upcoming titles like Bioshock Infinite and The Last Of Us .
But after reviewing games throughout the generation, there is one section that stands out in contrast when comparing high-profile Western to Japanese games: voice acting. The Japanese actors – the English actors they hire, that is – just aren't on the same level as the professionals we've heard in games like L.A. Noire , Red Dead Redemption , Heavenly Sword , Heavy Rain , Uncharted , etc. I mean, it's not even close. While I actually think the voice performances in Final Fantasy XIII-2 are better than what we heard in FFXIII, the overall voice package pales in comparison to last year's Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception .
Really, it pales in comparison to a lot of recent Western titles; this includes Assassin's Creed: Revelations , Battlefield 3 , Batman: Arkham City , and Gears of War 3 . Now, I thought the aforementioned MGS4 had great voice acting but there were still a few exceptions in that game, and I can't think of any other Japanese title that excels in the all-important category. It could just be the translation issue; these games could have awesome Japanese actors, but the developer only gets amateurs for the English versions.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it anymore. It's one of the reasons Japanese games are seen as less refined, less accomplished, less cutting-edge. The dialogue is a part of this as well; it rarely flows naturally in Japanese titles and again, this could be due to translation problems. But great voice acting in games have become movie-esque; we really have to buy into the actors/characters on screen. I'm always distinctly aware I'm playing a video game whenever someone speaks in a Japanese title; that's all I'm saying.
There are exceptions, of course. But in general, I think this is a clear albeit disappointing observation.
I've always enjoyed the voice acting in FF games (minus that entire laughing scene in FFX). But I certainly understand where you're coming from. This is actually quite interesting I've never thought of comparing the voice talent given like this before.
Yes, this is a very old issue, and not just in games. The trouble isn't so much on the Japanese end, where the voice acting is typically top-notch, but on the Western publisher's end. This is one of the reasons people were miffed at SE when they announced that FF13 wouldn't have Japanese voice options. We knew that a quality performance was likely given, and that we'd probably get a lame afterthought of a performance. This is the same issue anime fans have dealt with for as long as there have been anime fans, and why we have an obsession with watching them with the original voice acting.
Japanese game developers tend to cast people who are right for the role, even if they never do anything else for them, while English publishers tend to have a regular staff that they use repeatedly, no matter how well they may or may not fit the roles. Overseas, they run into same problem, but in reverse. Our English developers put love and attention into their product, while the foreign publishers just want to get the product onto shelves as quickly as possible.
It's a problem of business dynamics, unfortunately. The developers who keep everything in-house, including the publishing, like Konami, can have full control over the process. That's why MGS4 was so good. It was developed simultaneously in the East and West, with quality in mind. But that doesn't happen very often.
Well said.
To put it simply a project's original language dialogue tends to get the best treatment. It's as simple as that.
Japanese products are generally best viewed with Japanese dialogue (with maybe some exceptions) and so on.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 1/30/2012 2:21:12 AM
I fully agree with this. The translation problem might not cut it in some peoples' eyes but it is the long and short of it. And it ranges across multiple media as pointed out here, not just games.
Take Yip Man 2 for example. The original Cantonese is just great, the lines are delivered flawlessly and the emotion is there. If you listen to it with English dubbing, it's almost unwatchable.
Now the question is, why does this happen? The simple answer is money and time to market and get that money. If a blockbuster game/film/anime/book (in some cases) comes out in a foreign market, be it Asia, Europe, or even here with the reverse trend, then whoever gains the publishing rights in the foreign market is going to want to get that media out to the consumer as quick as humanly possible.
Do you want to take the time to research the roles, match the best fitting actor to the character, and then have them rehearse the lines and try for the parts? Or, from a purely business standpoint, do you want to get someone who knows how to translate from Japanese to English or (insert language) to (and another) and have them read the lines?
Just going through the motions you get the media to the consumer faster with less overhead and hence a higher return on margin.
It's just simple business and yes, in the grand scheme of things, the "lost in translation" excuse is more than valid.
A detailed question contains the seeds of an initial response to an unknown value.
Proper questions lead to wisdom.
Why are the english voice actors hired in Japan found lacking??
Questions:
Where are most movies made??
Where is the total size of the voice actor talent pool largest??
Where is the highest ratio of voice acting talent most likely to be??
Where do highly paid movie/voice talent actors register at??
What Nation is most likely to have a high ratio of Japanese speaking actors and a very low ratio of english speaking actors??
All irrelevant questions when pursuing the best quality possible in any given entertainment production.
You overcome adversity to make something that's competitive, and there's absolutely nothing stopping big-budget productions like Final Fantasy or Resident Evil from obtaining professional talent.
@ Ben
Well Ben if you were to ask the businessmen, and especially the foreign businessmen, who publish these games overseas I think they would say something like "I think you are overestimating the commercial and financial importance of excellent voice acting. Why go through the trouble of devoting extra time and money toward looking for excellent when adequate will do?".
Know what I mean?
But Looking Glass, according to limextree below often the *same* actors are used also for these games?
@ Beamboom
I'll refer you to Kabutohunter's post a little ways up on this comment section for an answer.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 1/30/2012 6:51:39 AM
Looking Glass: Obviously, that'd be an incorrect assessment by any publisher. Doesn't really change the facts.
@ Ben
Well I think it opens up the question of exactly how important excellent voice acting is in terms of sales.
Sure it may give the developers and publishers something to brag about but is so-so voice acting really a deal breaker for a significant number of consumers especially when that kind of thing tends to be subjective anyway?
I could be wrong about this but the impression I get is that the answer is no.
In today's world, mediocre voice acting sticks out like a sore thumb. It immediately makes the entire production seem outdated and again, that we're all very aware that we're playing a video game.
@ Ben
But is that an actual deal breaker for a significant number of consumers?
Because as I've said I get the impression that the answer is no.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 1/30/2012 10:42:27 AM
This has nothing to do with being a "deal breaker." They need to change how they do things; you can't do the English voice acting as an after-thought, plain and simple.
I've said this in the past many times, actually: The issue isn't the voice actor. It's the dialogue.
Look at FFXIII for an easy example. Lightning's voice actor is actually pretty well respected in the acting industry. But look at Lightning's dialogue? It's pathetic. It's generic, expected, and 85% of the time, she has 1 word answers. The story is decent, but the dialogue is utter crap.
Star Wars was the same way.
But look at the FF franchise. It's always been that bad with dialogue. We have countless amazing stories that are good enough on their own to capture us. But the dialogue has always been somewhat iffy. Mind you, characters can still be interesting and story can still be great without good dialogue, but it does limit our ability to connect with the characters.
I truly believe the issue is the dialogue. Don't forget the cultural difference in communication. Translate things the Japanese would say to each other into English, it's almost always a little sappy because English isn't as poetic as Japanese. So it comes out awkwardly. We also have a smaller dictionary, which means we have fewer words to draw from to relay meaning or feeling.
Translators do a decent job, but when the script is written originally in English for English with English characters, it's just a lot more fluid.
It honestly doesn't matter how good your actors are. If your dialogue is crap, they'll be limited. A good actor can make it decent, yes, but you can't do as good of a job as something as well written as Uncharted's dialogue.
For me, that's the real issue. (I've complained about that before in other topics, actually)
Russel, a central issue with your questions is that they appear to be coming from a mistaken belief. The voice actors that provide the English voices for Japanese games are generally speaking hired in the west by the publisher handling the localization. They are western voice actors, often those that specialize in anime and game dubs.
I agree 100% with Ben about the importance *and* Underdog about the fault being at the script rather than the actor (you'd never thin this day would come, huh Under? 😉 ).
Regarding being a "deal breaker" or not: It may not be right there and then, but in the long run I'd say it is. It makes me think less of the game, and that opinion may be the difference between buying the sequel or not.
There are so many games with amazing voice acting now so bad voice/dialogue has almost become "the new bad graphics".
Last edited by Beamboom on 1/30/2012 1:13:07 PM
@ Ben
I'm actually inclined to agree with you that excellent voice acting is preferable.
But this also depends on how you define "need". If there is not a serious enough financial and commercial incentive for excellent voice acting then good luck at trying to sway a lot of companies. And is there a significant number of consumers who would forgo buying a game solely or mainly or mostly because of less than excellent voice acting?
As I've said I get the impression that the answer is no.
I actually cannot tell the difference.
Voices are voices to me.
I have NEVER thought that any game had bad voice acting, maybe a few here or there, or maybe "that voice doesn't suite that face" (Like the new Desmond in AC:R, horrible!)
But another thing to note, is that the Japanese market is heavily influenced by the anime industry, and in the anime industry, the japanese voice acting is second to none, but at the end of the day, they go for a "cool" sounding character.
@LookingGlass – I can very EASILY get so god damn annoyed by the voice acting in terms of intrepreting the characters properly. I think you're UNDERestimating the significance of good voice acting. Devs spend a lot of time bring these characters to life, yet their voice is the main aspect that's reaching out to the gamers.
Have you ever talked to someone or heard them talking and thought to yourself "Man, I don't know what it is about this dude, but I totally want to punch him in the face because of the way he talks!"
Ok, maybe that's a bit far. Or is it?
@ DemonNeno
That's an interesting position.
Although somehow I don't think the position and opinions of a single person would really be enough to sway significant numbers of cynical pragmatic business people unfortunately.
And incidentally I think that is a little far since it would probably get you arrested.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 1/31/2012 6:45:11 AM
I've been feeling this way for a long time. It's not only the voice acting but the dialog itself that is really painful. Maybe the Japanese versions are really well written, but all I know is that the western translations seem really amateurish. I've rarely felt that conversations characters are having as being natural.
Also, a lot of things just don't make the transition well like the characters calling their siblings brother or sister constantly. When I talk to my brother we use each others names.
maybe cause English is a worldwide language.
Short answer – The good voice actors are speaking their native language in Japanese games
This.
Just leave the original voice over, and subtitles if you want good voice acting.
I'm not sure the issue is the actors.
For instance, Lightnings voice actor is Liara for Mass Effect, and Snow's actor is the main character in bioshock infinite.
I have to say, some of of the western games you listed, have similar akward voice acting. Heavy Rain has some really good ones, but some, for instance any scene with the kid. And certain side characters. And even Deus Ex (my favorite game this gen), had quite a bit of akwardness in it too. (trash lady etc).
I think, it's mainly the dialogue/translation. As it adds an extra boundary towards quality VA's. Dubs on movies, from english to something or vise versa have had problems forever.
Last edited by limextree on 1/29/2012 11:56:54 PM
That's an interesting post, limextree.
But if they often use the same actors as the western games then it must be either the direction/production or the scripts?
Last edited by Beamboom on 1/30/2012 1:18:45 AM
@Beamboom
That's exactly it. The issue is the dialogue. Even in good stories, the dialogue is often poor in Japanese games.
Any FF is a great example of that. Even one with amazing story, like FFVI or FFVII. "Alright everyone…. let's Mosey." -Cloud ….. are you kidding me?! Sometimes the poor dialogue can even take the character OUT of character.
Resident Evil having bad voice acting is so staple, that I would be disappointed if it wasn't in the game.
Leon: "Where's everyone going? Bingo?"
Me: "Awwwwwwww yah!"
As for other games that take themselves seriously in this category, yes, they should have better voice acting. Like mentioned above though, it's the Western publisher's responsibility to get it right, and the fact they often use people unsuited for the roles is a big letdown.
Good question here~ Forgive me for writing long comments but this is a topic I did many research on as a non-japanese speaker who are a big fan of japanese indusrty (games, anime, manga, drama). First, There are also quite a number of japanese games with good english VA
Nier – excellent voice acting, especially among the main casts. I remember the first time playing it hearing Kaine's scolding Weiss during the title screen just blew me away~
Final Fantasy 12 and Crisis Core – I think these two games also have great voice acting
Kingdom Hearts – this game also boosts excellent VA, if you can accept the cheesy dialogue – which is what KH is about.
Disgaea – now this can be tricky, if you like this kind on genre, then I think the english VA done an excellent job, especially with the crazy only-to-be-found-in-japanese games characters.
In terms of dialog – western cultures tend to have more cool, serious, dark dialog, but in japanese industry (games,drama,anime), the dialog tends to be dramatic, simple, cheesy and a lot of moral values tend to be inserted (search google for famous japanese kanji to get examples of the common words in japanese script). So western gamers might view that as not as top-notch as western games have more "serious dialog"
But for most of the games, the main barier I think is the type of character, many characters in japanese games are unique to japanese culture – such as Vanille in FF13 – Vanille is the complete representation of the "moe"-type in girl in Japan (search youtube for Akihabara moe), which I personally belive only Japanese VA can truly represent the her attitude.
Even outside games industry, take the anime industry, best example for me – the anime One Piece – almost all the main casts are characters + dialogue unique to the japanese culture – and when their english counterpart tried to turn in into english – it sounded really awkward…
That's why for more non-japanese specific characters like Solid Snake – its easier for the english VA to do his role.
I certainly understand the culture gap and I'm aware it could be a contributing factor. But even in the games you cite, they're still a far cry from professional voice performances we get in games like Uncharted and L.A. Noire. It's just a whole different world in terms of talent and natural delivery.
I agree Uncharted and LA noire has better ENGLISH voice acting.
But games like LA Noire, Heavy rain and Uncharted if I'm not mistaken use the actual actor (plus movement and facial expression) as the in-game character – hence the voice acting is "perfect" because it is them acting in the game. So to compare them with japanese game which none I know use this approach is a bit unfair in my opinion.
But if you compare those games I mentioned above with western games that take a similiar approach like Dragon Age, Assassin Creed, GOW, Infamous etc… its not that much of a difference (at least in my opinion).
Also you have to looks at the script in Japanese game, for example you take the script in Kingdom Hearts (or Disgaea for extreme example) and you take the script for Heavy Rain. Even if both are covered by extremely talented VAs, Heavy Rain will still seemed more excellent (at least in many westerners opinion)~ the script in heavy rain is the kind that one would normally think to be of "higher standard"
Not to say that Japanese script are inferior, like I said in my previous post – its just that's the way japanese script are often presented – which I like better? I would say KH script & VA had more impact to me then Heavy Rain's. Personal preferences. Of course we're not talking about script now – forgive the sidetrack~
Yes, writing and dialogue has a lot to do with it. I'm not sure why the scripts for Japanese games seem so amateur in comparison to that of higher-end Western games.
And I really don't think it matters if the actor is actually in the game (via mo-cap); voice performances are voice performances. Great ones stand out regardless of the visual.
@Ben
I have a feeling that the dialogue in original Japanese might be pretty good writing in Japanese. But sometimes I wonder what happens when the translators get a hold of it. Especially if their goal is just to translate. How much though when trying to convey the same meaning in English, goes into what the character is actually like?
How much more difficult is that for passive-aggressive statements, or things with hidden or suppressed meaning? Quite quickly, it becomes much more than just translating… now you have to convey the exact same meaning in a way that accurately reflects the character it represents… To do that well, you'd have to sit down an closely analyze each and every sentence.
I think RaYz89 has hit the nail on the head here.
Japanese games are games, they have archetypal characters such as the moe characters (and people better know what the hell they are talking about before they jump on that word 'moe' and make4 assertions about sexual content).
There is a complete difference in mood and context in the games and it's not entirely fair to compare them in the way that is being done.
Ben, I think you're off base with a couple of things here;
"Yes, writing and dialogue has a lot to do with it. I'm not sure why the scripts for Japanese games seem so amateur in comparison to that of higher-end Western games."
Which games are you comparing? JRPGs vs Heavy Rain? You might as well start comparing an Anime like Lucky Star to Citizen Kane for tha kind of comparison. The types of title and aims of the writing are so different, I don't see how you can put them side by side and expect a comparison to emerge.
Part of the problem with the 'scripting' of Japanese games is that they go through localization and translation and a script and story that in Japan has levels of nuance and reference, loses a lot of those levels when hacked up by a low budget crew localizing the game for the west. all the cultural references are lost and replaced, and often times the choices made are questionable. But let's face ti, even if you pay $1M for the original script, you're only going to pay $100K to localize it. Guess which writers are better?
"I've heard Japanese voices as well as English. I'm sorry, but most Japanese voice actors fail to understand certain acting principles like tone and nuance…I think it's really significant. "
No. The voice actors in anime are voice actors in anime. Japanese actors in live drama have all the nuance and subtlety that you think you are missing. Anime is not about those things, it's about emotional extremes, and that is reflected in the voice acting and writing. To use anime and video games as your reference points for the abilities of Japanese screen writers and actors misses everything outside of that realm.
Another example, of talented voice-actors, and possibly poorly translated lines…GG's KZ2. Again, professional voice actors. But, the poorly translated lines didn't give them much of opportunity to shine their talents.
Highlander: I'm not talking about anything besides video games. I don't watch anime so I don't know anything about it. However, I do know good voice acting when I hear it, in any language, and even the Japanese voices in games seem more one-dimensional.
As for the translation, I'm sure that's a factor but I doubt the determining one. Translators can translate. They know the language. They're not desperately trying to sift through a complicated script and picking out only words they know. All that might be lost are things like cultural references we won't get. But translators aren't going to mess up anything besides that, right down to punctuation.
I know dialogue and specifically, dialogue in writing. Much of the Japanese dialogue for characters looks as if it were written by amateurs; it doesn't flow, it doesn't have natural breaks and inflections, and it also doesn't know when to STOP. In FFXIII-2, for example, a good editor would've gone through that script and tossed out 30-40% of the lines as being entirely and in all other ways superfluous.
There are exceptions, of course. I'm only speaking in general, and I'm certainly not referring to anime or stage, TV, or film actors in Japan at all. I'm sure they have plenty of talent like any other country.
@Ben
I'm glad you get my point the lines are the main problem.
But like I said, its not because it is inferior or poorly done, it is because that's the way japanese script/games are made.
Take Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days (its on DS, not sure you've played it), its full of just simple lines and cheesy answer and when compared the games like Heavy Rain, LA Noire, the lines will seemed very poorly done.
But I think the lines in KH 358/2 days excellently portrays the "simple without a heart" characters in the game, for example ***Spoiler****
In the ending scene, after Xion dies, the last words Roxas said to her "Who else will I have ice-cream with?"
Now, people who dont understand this game will go WTF??? Ice cream?? What stupid and low level dialog?? Is this a 5 year old making this script?? Its nowhere near the level of Heavy Rain.
But people who truly understand really feel the impact behind those simple words, because Roxas is supposed to be Nobodies who doesn't really understand human emotions, so all his expression are very simple, yet reflects a very complicated emotional conflict within which he did not understand.
That's my point in the previous post, most westerners would never put the lines nor the VA in KH above Heavy Rain… Why? Well, maybe we tend to choose the lines that are more complicated, more serious, contain higher level vocab as a better lines compared to "Who else will I have ice-cream with?".
Or another game – Crisis Core – full of the main character saying the cheesy phrase like "Embrace your dream, if you want to be a hero you need dream" … Now westerner will often brush that off as merely a simple low-level script, but that is a Japanese script – simple, cheesy, contain moral values and often includes famous japanese characters (which is "dream" in this case). I think the game will lose half it appeals if Zack started using lines like those used in Skyrim, Heavy Rain and LA Noire.
And I forgot to mention MGS Peace Walker. Excellent VAs. MGS PW can give such an impact using just a tape recording (my favorite; The Boss tape recording). The VA doesnt even need a high quality cutscenes with real-time facial expression to deliver such an amazing performance. And if you still think Heavy Rain, LA Noire and Uncharted are more impressive than MGSPW, then I guess we just have different preferences and what is better~
@Rayz89: Quoting, "its full of just simple lines and cheesy answer" – but isn't this more or less the very definition of poor dialogue/scripts?
I mean, "it's not bad, it's just Japanese" is an almost insulting excuse. 😀
Last edited by Beamboom on 1/31/2012 6:27:39 AM
Firstly, I dont think its cheesy, I think its normal, I'm just saying it for argument sake.
and nope, its not an excuse its a fact, those unique attribute of japanese script are exactly the appeal of games like Kingdom Hearts & Crisis Core, and many other japanese games, anime, manga and dramas. I dont think my limited capabilty can ever make you understand, the best way would be to dive yourself into the realm of japanese art/film industry, watch some award-winning movie/anime/drama if you truly want to see the differences yourself.
But of course in the end its really up to personal preference~ do you want a game that's all serious or can you accept one with full of simple and cheesy lines (cheesy for western standard, normal for japanese culture).
For me, if anyone heard the lines in Crisis Core;
"Embrace your dream, if you want to be a hero you need dream"
and they say its cheesy or laughable, they probably just aren't suited to the common theme in Japanese game.
I feel that I've played too few Japanese games to really have a strong opinion on this subject, but from the few games I do have played I must say none of them stands out as particularly good in the voice acting department.
However I've always felt that that's more due to poor manuscripts than the actors. A good actor can make a script better, but not even the best actor can make a bad script good.
What would be *really* interesting is to hear how a Japanese gamer perceive this: Would he agree?
We need more Japanese gamers around here.
not falling behind, just loosing their way.
there trying to imitate, be who they are not.
and, well, the result is pretty obvious, its the cheap chinese rolex knock off you see at the markets.
i had to piss myself laughing when i got to our first port on my cruse last night.
first shop we went into was a electronics store and right there was a chinese knock off of the vita.
ITS NOT EVEN OUT YET!
gee, those chinese dont waste any time thats for sure!
I haven't played L.A. Noire, but I am sure the voice acting is as good as a host of other titles, namely the Uncharted and GoW series, Heavy Rain etc. Very high quality generally across the top 360 and PS3 games, and the voice acting is getting better all the time.
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
Maybe because we are more exposed to a wider array of cultures here due to our controversial diversity and multiculturalism?
The Japanese take their knowledge and skills in Japanese game making and try to apply it to Western formaulas in an attempt to appeal to the Western market.
It hasn't worked so far, and I doubt it will ever work.
Japanese art style, story, characters, most tend to be based on Japanese stereotypes, Manga characters, Japanese history, artistic backgrounds, etc etc… However, this is a stark contrast to what us Westerners are used to seeing in movies and games made by Westerners.
Remember when one Japanese developer mentioned Westerners love aliens and guns, and many try to accommodate that violent tone towards American and Western gamers? Many of them think that more guns and more violence = more success in America and Europe. Not necessarily so.
Because of the difference in tastes, moods, character portrayals, direction and influences between Japanese and US entertainment (and most importantly, the actors playing those characters), IF the Japanese were to make an Uncharted game, or IF the US were to make a Final Fantasy game, I'm sure the Japanese would say their version of FF is better while Americans will say their version of Uncharted is better.
Honestly, I think the Japanese should just stop catering to US gamers altogether and focus on what they do best, artistic merit and incredibly engaging gameplay with long storylines.
Look at Ni No Kuni and Catherine. Both games were not aimed at US gamers AT ALL, but next to Resident Evil and Final Fantasy, they appear to be the most popular games coming out of Japan, hence them being translated and given a US and European release.
I'm not against great games targeted at US gamers in the first place, like Resident Evil and MGS. But Japanese franchises changing their formula in a bid to appease the US gamer just seems wrong to me, like Final Fantasy.
I'm not so sure if you're asking the right question Ben. A better one to ask might be "Why do Western Games have superior WESTERN Voice performances?". In which case I think the answer would kind of be in the question.
That the same question. A superior performance is a superior performance in the eyes of the world. Games are global; they're not just in Japan.
The voice acting is obviously lacking on one side, so something should be done about it, IMO.
@ Ben
With all due respect I beg to differ.
The original question seems to assume that each game gets only one performance. When actually there are numerous performances attached to each game in different languages, often with some performances for a game being better than others.
In this same vein people living in Japan could ask "Why do Japanese games have superior voice performances?".
The slight revision I pointed out is more specific.
Last edited by Looking Glass on 1/30/2012 10:55:04 AM
I really don't think that's the case at all. I think the actors tapped for games in this country are accomplished stage and screen actors, and that is NOT the case in Japan. Or at least, it's not the case anywhere near as often.
I've heard Japanese voices as well as English. I'm sorry, but most Japanese voice actors fail to understand certain acting principles like tone and nuance…I think it's really significant.
I get that American film industry is far more developed and advanced than most other places in the world, not just Japan. But could it be, that since they have different language, intonation, style, mode, body language, that it's not that they don't get tone, but we just don't get theirs?