I assume you're all E3'd out so I'm avoiding that for this update.  But if you want to catch up, feel free to check out our Sony conference impressions , and don't forget about our mammoth E3 video update .

Demos are great, but OLD demos…not so much

While I'm not the biggest fan of all the changes and advancements this generation, I have to say that demos are great. The idea of being able to play a title before it releases has been a dream of gamers for a very long time. And for the most part, play samples are a good indication of the final product, especially when the demo comes out the week before the game's release. But putting a demo up too early typically means we're dealing with old code or an old build, which immediately causes negative feedback to circulate. This apparently happened with the Duke Nukem Forever demo and same goes for the Resistance 3 sample that briefly appeared on the Asian PSN this past week. Why bother doing such a thing?

All you manage to do is turn people off ahead of time. It's all the more tragic when that demo isn't even accurate; i.e., it's old and inferior to what the final game will be. Then everyone has the wrong idea and any early "buzz" is negative or at the very least, skeptical. Look, I know Resistance 3 won't set the graphics bar but I'm fairly convinced it'll be great. I have my reservations about DNF but the point is, don't bother with demos unless they're accurate .

Itagaki, you can never go home again

While many Japanese game designers and executives have called out the country's apparent decline in the video game industry, Tomonobu Itagaki may be the first to say Japan's developers "don't know how to make games." Now, I have to say, while I don't agree that all Western studios are now superior to Japanese teams, I will say this- the bottom line is that the majority of games I own this generation are of Western origin. This has nothing to do with any allegiance; let's not forget that I'm a die-hard JRPG fan (or at least, I was). But the difference is obvious- while nearly all games in my PS1 collection come from Japanese developers, nearly all titles in my PS3 collection come from Western studios. That means something.

I still say if Japanese developers had stuck with what brought them their fans in the first place… You know what I mean. I used to be able to count on Square but no more; now even Metal Gear Solid isn't immune to this desperate "appeal to Western tastes" mentality. What is Rising , again? I have faith in Japanese talent. But what can I say? The best games every year are rarely from the East and that's that.

Personal gaming update

So I finally got around to finishing L.A. Noire and I've posted my final thoughts and reflections . It's a must-play for just about everyone, I say. My brother thinks it's funny that I really like Elsa's German accent, though; mainly because I've often said I really despise that accent. …now I have to eat my words. I still say it's more Austrian than German, though! Anyway, I've moved on to inFamous 2 , obviously. The game rules. I know some of you weren't too happy with my review but I'm sticking by it.

By the way, for those who don't see the stickiness I speak of, here's a test: jump off a building and pan the camera down so you can see how far away from the building you are. Gauge how far away you have to be so Cole just falls straight down without adhering to a part of the wall. You might be surprised how far away you really have to be… But the game is addictive and great, so I won't harp on that. 🙂

And by the way, this should be the week. June 16 is near and I'm hoping we can finally lift the lid on our big announcement. And I hope you'll all like it!

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WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

I think the problem is that demos have become incentives for things. Preorder Duke and play the demo! But yeah, sorry that it's super old. Buy Battle LA and play Resistance 3! Sorry it's an old build. Yeah, demos are a good idea, but like betas they have become a bargaining chip. Now you have to buy PSPlus, or a game. (Though I'm not complaining that inFamous 2 comes with the Uncharted 3 code).

I can iron out Itagaki's statement into truth easily: change it to this "Japanese developers don't know how to make western games." There, now it makes sense. They should stick to Japanese creativity, ingenuity, and the old style like Ben says.

I beat L.A. Noire too, I was a little disappointed that you spoiled the ending for me though Ben. Tsk Tsk. Great game, I would change just a few little things for the next one.

As far as Coles stickiness goes, of course it's there it has to be, but if you pop inFamous 1 in you'll see just how much it has been lessened. The key is to use the mechanic in your favor and constantly be moving, if you know he will clasp onto a wire from 3 feet out have the O button pressed in time to fall off it. I have the same problem with stealth games, I'm always fighting the mechanics with what SHOULD work but doesn't.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
9 years ago

"Japanese developers don't know how to make western games."

Truth.

PorkChopGamer
PorkChopGamer
9 years ago

That's false. Resident Evil 4, Devil May Cry, Vanquish, Demon's Souls are a few right off the top of my head.

PorkChopGamer
PorkChopGamer
9 years ago

I guess it depends on what constitutes a 'western' game in your eyes, as well.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

Resident Evil was fine until 5, that was a western attempt. Devil May Cry is very Japanese, though I suspect that will change with DmC. Vanquish I can't say much about because I only played the demo, but yeah Demon's Souls is essentially a western RPG but there are always exceptions.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

Porkchop, you just know you're asking for a fight when you put things like that.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
9 years ago

Great games. I'd add Gran Turismo and MGS4 to that list, too.

But it just doesn't compete with Uncharted, LittleBigPlanet, Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead Redemption, Portal 2, Heavy Rain, God of War III, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Mass Effect, Gears of War, Alan Wake, Assassin's Creed, Killzone, Dead Space, L.A. Noire, Battlfield, Burnout, Bioshock, Resistance, inFamous, Crysis 2, etc.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. It really isn't even close.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

Question: Do Eastern developers make Western games better than Western developers make Eastern games? Or is there just no precedence for the latter? In retrospect, I can't help but think that Enslaved had a very Japanese-influenced feeling to it. That gives me hope for DmC.

PorkChopGamer
PorkChopGamer
9 years ago

[email protected]
Come on, sir. I was just being succinct. Do I need to sugarcoat everything? Did you read some of those comments in the Nintendo editorial? Haha.

@Ben

That's an awesome list. I understand you. It's definitely a big qap quantity-wise. But I think that if a great Japanese developer put therie mind to rival Uncharted, they could.

Claire C
Claire C
9 years ago

@World

I agree with you that Infamous 2 is a superior sequel. I played quite a bit of it the last few days and I can't think of an area where I like the first as much. Infamous 2 is a GREAT game! =)

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

Claire I think inFamous 2 is even MORE addicting than the first. I can't say I've tried crack or meth but that game has to be just as addicting. Once I start playing I have to force myself to stop, and even that rarely works.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

Lawless I've never seen a successful attempt by a western developer to make a typically Japanese game, they are always caricatures of the real thing. I think that the problem facing Japanese developers is the same in reverse, they make games that pander to certain archetypes typical in western games and as sch are caricatures of the real thing. To my mind, Japanese developers succeed best when they make the best game that they know how to for their primary audience, and then simply localize the result for western audiences. Such games may be more of a niche market than they'd like, but on average I think that approach was more successful.

Porkchop, you are really getting on my nerves, and to be honest I think you know you're getting on people's nerves with comments like that. We don't need flamebait here, thanks.

PorkChopGamer
PorkChopGamer
9 years ago

@ Highlander

Do you know what the heck gets on my nerves?

Block parties. Schmoozing with the new folks.

'You play video games? I really like playing Mafia Wars and Farmville.'

'Get off of my property.'

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

"How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a fine book. Why not go read it.

PorkChopGamer
PorkChopGamer
9 years ago

Do they have that book on tape? It would help to listen with these late nights doing business stuff.

And I need someone with a distinct voice, too. Sean Connery, Patrick Stewart, Christopher Lee, or James Earl Jones would do just fine.

I'd even settle for the movie version. As long as it doesn't have Shia Labeouf in it.


Last edited by PorkChopGamer on 6/12/2011 1:19:03 AM

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

oh dear God the uncomfortableness…

Beamboom
Beamboom
9 years ago

@Porky: "Mafia Wars and Farmville"??? lol – get off *my* property! 😀


Last edited by Beamboom on 6/12/2011 9:00:29 AM

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

I dont get it…. I sort of wish I did. I'm too out of tune with everything else that isn't a video game.

I do know who that Leboff Transformers guy is, though =p Only because he runs around with that good looking gal.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

This is going up early… Did you lot come off Daylight Savings, or am I just dicombobulated for some reason.

I think that demos really should be indicative of, or better than the majority of the final product. Why do I say this? They're likened to trailers for films. Trailers are all about the flashbang and offering the viewer the best parts of the film (a horrendous mistake IMO) in order to draw an audience. Similarly, a game demo should be about making a player sit back and go, "WOW! I need more of that!" So lacklustre demos obviously make the games a harder sell. They need to be current, and they need to represent what we'll be playing come release day. As for R3, I care not for negative press, as I've mentioned several times.

The whole westernisation thing is a pain. I mean, how sad is it to hear of the Yakuza team working on Binary Domain, a squad-based TPS… Damnit, I want titles like Yakuza, WKC and Valk Chronicles. I want the off the wall ideas like those that come from Sony Japan, and I want the unique atmospheres presented by Team ICO. I don't want muscle-bound roidheads like Chris in Resident Evil, I want the Japanese idea of horror. I don't need attempts at tackling the Western cliches as in Vanquish. I want differences, damnit.

Peronal Update:
Breezed through Breakfast at Tiffany's. Refreshing to read something purely narrative after trying to wade through the allegory of Commedia, but I still have to go back to Paradise… Not yet. I've moved onto the Complete Novels of Jane Austen, starting with Emma. I'm not reading them in order, as I want to save Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion for last.
Picked up inFamous 2 and WKCII yesterday and started playing the latter. All I can say is that it is exactly what a sequel should be, but that's not a good thing for people that didn't play the first. EVERYTHING is open to you from the beginning. It could be liberating, but it is instead overwhelming. Sheer madness, but I've adjusted to it quickly enough. I have two cases left of L.A. Noire that I'll go back to after I've played a bit more WKC, then it'll be on to iF2, while WKC sits on the backburner. Not because I want it to, but because it must. I'll be wanting to delve into the original before continuing with the second again.
Also managed to pick up Killzone: Liberation for $6 yesterday, which means that it'll be occupying my PSP time while I play WKC so that I'm not trying to follow two epic RPG storylines simultaneously.
That's about all.
Peace.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
9 years ago

I don't mind Austen, but I like Eliot and Wharton better. Superior novels, IMO.

And this update went up at about the normal time. 🙂

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

In that case, my sleep's all out of whack for some reason… Not far enough through Emma to really gauge it against Middlemarch, and haven't yet read anything by Wharton. But you're probably right… you usually are 😛

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

I picked up KZ Liberation as one of my free PSP games, haven't gotten to it yet but I hope it's decent. I'm all kinds of upset that you guys get WKC2 and we have to wait MONTHS, I mean seriously what the hell man? At least I have an assload of games I need to play over the brief Summer drought, and that list will expand on Tuesday.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
9 years ago

I haven't read any Austen in a while, actually. But I do remember liking Emma.

I'm not all that thrilled with The Brothers Karamazov right now, though. I think Dostoyevsky was clearly NUTS. I'm about 300 pages in and I can't see putting him in the same universe as Tolstoy, who is just greatly superior in terms of writing quality, IMO.

I'll get to the second volume of Proust's Remembrance of Things Past at some point. Six volumes…it'll take a while. 😉


Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/11/2011 10:41:29 PM

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

I was planning on grabbing Super StarDust and the Wipeout expansion, but the value side of me had it's way and persuaded me to download LBP instead of the WipEout expansion(I still suck on the original tracks so why get more of them to suck at?). I knew it wasn't going to be quite my thing, but I did also know it won a boat load of awards and stuff. I wanted really to see what the fuss was about, and you can't beat free.

I also grabbed KZ Liberation for PSP, and, once again, LBP. I figured maybe one day my daughter will inherit my PSP and she might like LBP.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

What's the issues with The Brothers Karamazov? Reaching plot points? Questionable characterisation, or just a general lack of talent? Sorry to seem nosy, but I'm interested. And enjoy that other beast of a book.

Hey World, if you really want, I could ship it over to you. I'd have to check the postage costs, just in case it is a bit out of my range, but I don't really see that being an issue. As for us getting it early… the only times we seem to is when we get them really early. WKC2, Motorstorm 3… but then you get everything else, so just consider it retaliation for making us wait for Demon's Souls.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

A kind offer my friend but I'm afraid I have to decline, you see I want to use my hard earned Save file and that doesn't work when you cross territories. I'll survive, actually it's better that I have something to look forward to later in the summer.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

Did not know that about the save file. Interesting. At least it's in a semi-drought period for you guys. Smack bang between Catherine and El Shaddai in late July, then nothing really until Deus Ex at the end of August.

Ben Dutka PSXE
Ben Dutka PSXE
9 years ago

I'd say it's a general lack of talent, but only in comparison to literary geniuses like Tolstoy. Obviously, compared to most contemporary fiction, it's something special.

It just lacks the subtlety and description of Tolstoy, and all Dostoyevsky's characters are INSANE. They're just bonkers. Only one of the brothers seems normal and everyone else is nuts. It's so out of control it's almost like a comedy, even though it really isn't.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

I just wish Itagaki was still doing Ninja Gaiden and DOA. I can live with his remarks about the eastern work ethic. Whether it's true or not, I dunno. I've never worked with game devs in Japan. But one thing is for certain, Eastern games don't nearly get as much attention or are as high quality these days. Though, Gran Turismo 5 still owns the racing crown.

I like Infamous 2 a ton also. By PSXe's rating system I'd have given it an 8.8 myself but hey, that's me. I just can't put it up there in the 9+ range because frankly it has a ton of bugs and sub story telling values.

PGU: Aside from the Infamous 2 detour I'm a deep way into Heavy Rain. Which as everyone knows is an engaging innovative way to interact with the visual medium of story telling. I really can't think of it as a game in the traditional sense. On the onset I kept asking myself if the QTE's and doing things like opening random cupboard doors was necessary or relevant. But in time I began to recognize the purpose of such conventions and the fascinating way the game has you assume the role of the protagonist within the extremely focused story. The game creates the setting and premise for you and you're right there holding the character's hand as you experience the events together. It's quite ingenious actually. While you, the player, doesn't actually physically move as the game world character does you are asked to create the synaptic response a character in the game does. It's quite compelling because it draws you that much nearer to the reality of events the story is trying to suspend you within. And you are perfectly synchronized in the passage of time in which the events unfold.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

I see you've given Heavy Rain a little thought eh?

I just wish SOMEONE was doing DOA. Any chance I missed the announcement of a new one?

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

Nah, only DOA: Dimensions on the 3DS… but it sets a precedent for more to follow.

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

Haysashi in all of his peculiarity thinks DOA will be best suited for the handhelds going forward.. which, well sucks for me. Especially when it's for the Nintendo 3DS. Something I won't be owning. I just don't get them. Why the crap not bring it back to Playstation? It was Itagaki's desire to force it's place on Xbox. They could do an official DOA5 or some sort of DOA Ultimate PS3 reunion game to properly reintroduce the series back to the audience who would see it more sales.

I've pretty much lost faith in Tecmo and Team Ninja going forward. I know it seems pre-mature as I haven't even given NG3 a chance yet. I just don't like the "new" about NG3. Everything I'm reading, hearing or seeing doesn't jive with my expectations or my belief in how the series should progress.
I'm all for ending a series if it's run it's course and has done all it can do with the hardware we have in place. I feel that way right now with NG. I'll no doubt check it out when it finally arrives, and I'm sure there will be many parts of it for me to like, but to wholly like it as I do the first two games is looking improbable.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

Ick, why must handhelds take the great games and reduce them to poop? Fighting games have finally had a resurgence and DOA is absent on consoles since 4? Anti. That's the only hand to hand fighter that I really like.

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

Itagaki said, before he left Team Ninja, that there wouldn't be any more DOA anyway as he felt that he'd made the ultimate fighting game… *shrugs*

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
9 years ago

A good, pointless and decorative DOA needs HD power. Handheld would be fine – on a Vita version – but we do need a console version.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

Yeah I remember him saying that, but he doesn't control the property anymore so it should be free to come back to consoles that aren't lame with plenty of new stuff.

Kevin555
Kevin555
9 years ago

@Temjin,

I'd love a new DOA for consoles. DOA4 on the 360 was a top notch fighting game & the counter system was great too. My only complaint about the game was the cheap bosses. That Alpha-152 clone defined cheap.

The game was pretty challenging too, i certainly wouldn't call it instantly accessible for newcomers or an easy pick up & play fighter, hell they didn't even include an easy difficulty setting, Normal mode was the easiest setting.

Now that Mr "i wear my sunglasses at night" has left the building (& hopefully left his female staff members alone too), we will see a new DOA for consoles soon. Itegaki's vision was that their was no reason to take DOA any further, now that he has gone leads me to believe that this series isn't dead yet. The release of DOA Dimensions is proof of that already.

Their were some rumblings over at DOAcentral about DOA5 appearing at E3 2011 or TGS later in the year. So maybe we will see something at the TGS.

Hopefully we see a certain VF5:FS announcement too with version A already getting tweaks as we speak.

DOA5 & VF5:FS for TGS. No bets. 😉

Temjin001
Temjin001
9 years ago

Itagaki claimed that him and his team believed that they have done all they could do with DOA on the 360. He didn't forever forsake the franchise.

Yeah, Kevin, DOA4 was good. DOA always struggled to maintain a hardcore identity in the tourney competitive scene, but DOA4 managed to get it there. Before DOAcentral came about, myself, and DOA fans met on the DOA3 gameFaqs thread. We discussed philosophies of fighting game depth and how they stacked up against each other. We built up a pretty loyal community there, meeting night after night to discuss DOA3 and explore all of it's intricacies of play. Then the idea of starting a hardcore DOA website began to materialize from within there, where the founders Dahlsim, Virtua Pai and others launched the site successfully and managed to enlist the support of the worldwide DOA champ "Master." They succeeded in interviews with Itagaki himself etc. And they orchestrated EVO representation for DOA and other DOA tourney's in general.
Just before the site went live I got into major pride arguments with Dahlsim and VirtuaPai (who me? =p ) I ended up shaming myself and leaving the community altogether.. well, sort of, other stuff was going on in my life too so I just felt it was time I left the DOA scene alone.

Anyway, I want a new full featured DOA on consoles. And yeah, Sony fans still needed to get a VF online as well.

Qubex
Qubex
9 years ago

Well, work has been busy for me at the minute, I didn't have enough time to spend and absorb all the goings on over at E3.

Popping in here, at PsXeXtreme, to catch up with everything has been great. I headed over to the store and downloaded the Sony presentation to see it in full. I had only managed to see drips and draps of all the presentations over the 3 show days and I stand by my opinion that they were not overly great, but they did the job.

I loved Uncharted 3 and what Sony had to offer generally. I think we have a good few years of life yet in the PS3 with some stella titles coming out. My two most anticipated games are Battlefield 3 and Uncharted 3. I really cannot wait for those and they will be this years day 1 purchases for me…

Other than this I have been downloading all the free stauff Sony has been giving us due to the PSN breach. Everything I can from the free games to the Playstation Plus mini's on offer etc. There is a lot of great content there. Funnily enough I have been playing Lilo and Stitch. Love the old school "Crash Bandicoot" style games. Showed how good PS1 was in its day.

I have a US, UK and ASIAN PSN accounts, and each account permitted me to download the full gammit from each region; that is a lot of free stuff, kinda made my year…

Other than that I have InFamous 1 to play. Tinkering with Dead Nation was cool. Housmarque did a good job as usually. Its all good fun anyway…

Got a bit of traveling to do in Asia in the upcoming 2 weeks. Other than that life is good at the moment. What more can one ask for… a PS4 maybe?

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"


Last edited by Qubex on 6/11/2011 10:30:50 PM

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

hah, I didn't even think of that. But I only have a US account. Pick me up a wife while you're in Asia, my place is a mess, needs a woman's touch.

Qubex
Qubex
9 years ago

Ha, yhea world… you can open a UK and ASIAN account, then you can triple your horde.

You should come over, Singapore is a great place, but wives can be had easily in Thailand or Vietnam. Once you marry though, you marry into the larger family… and you will quickly realise that you don't have any more money for games… it goes to the in-laws. Amongst expats here, this is the greatest complaint…

Remember, a man always ends up paying for certain pleasures in life, nothing is free, even though it would be great if it were…

What ever happens… the World will still end with you, and that is as final as it can get really 🙂

Q!

"play.experience.enjoy"


Last edited by Qubex on 6/12/2011 3:12:48 AM

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

No matter what country you go to women bleed your money dry.

Claire C
Claire C
9 years ago

Looking at a few reviews, maybe that demo of Duke Nukem Forever wasn't so old after all. Hee hee. 😉

Lawless SXE
Lawless SXE
9 years ago

Heartbreaking, innit? But the critical issues seem to stem more from a lack of any real focus and the game feeling anachronastic, despite offering more modern gameplay. Duke Nukem, if only you would have been allowed to Rest In Peace…

Claire C
Claire C
9 years ago

Not quite heartbreaking. I could have predicted as much. =^.^=

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

I am undeterred, reading comments from the Duke fans of old tells me it is still good. The reviews just say what I thought they would say, that it's outdated and blah blah blah.

Claire C
Claire C
9 years ago

Yah! Reviewers take their jobs too seriously, don't they? Hee hee. =D

Alienange
Alienange
9 years ago

Yeah, just imagine what we might be playing today if Japanese devs had stuck with what brought them their fans in the first place. The thought alone makes me crazy. The odd thing though is a few of them are capable of great gaming experiences but most of those efforts end up on a handheld system. Are they really unwilling or unable to make a great console game? Where's our epic HD Monster Hunter or Dragon's Quest?

And what about this "towns are so hard to include in an HD rpg" comment? Do we not have games like GTAIV, Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire, every Assassin's Creed, Fallout and Elder Scrolls that basically prove that towns are not only possible, but very very fun to have included? I've never heard such rubbish from a dev in all my gaming life.

We KNOW they can make good games. They've DONE it. So why the mismanagement now? Now, when gaming's at an all-time peak?

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
9 years ago

I think they just bought into the BS that only shooters and twitchers can get sales. This generation was supposed to bring us the ultimate in japanese games, the epic jrpg finally perfected, and instead we get the shaft and Dragon Quest shrinks from consoles. I just don't think any of it is a wise business decision.

Maybe the Itagaki dude is right and the devs can't keep up with the tech, I dunno.

Geobaldi
Geobaldi
9 years ago

Sure the Duke demo was old but that didn't bother me much when I was playing through it as it brought back so many fond memories. And all the bad reviews and such stating the bad graphics holds no water with me either. The Duke Nukem series was never known as having the greatest graphics, but was known as being really enjoyable, which the demo showed in small glimpses throughout the short duration of it. I know I'll be like a kid in a candy store when my copy arrives Tuesday.

And as far as demos go, usually I don't let a demo influence my buying decisions very often due to the fact that they are usually out of date compared to what the actual product will be, as in missing features, dialogue, descriptions, items, whatever the case may be. It's not complete is the point I suppose. With that said, the current Dungeon Siege 3 demo was just so horrible that I didn't even bother to finish it and I have since canceled my pre-order for it. It has very little resemblance to the previous two games of the series and plays terribly and is boring as all heck. S-E has destroyed that game for any fan of the originals. But I suppose those that never played the previous ones may like it to some extent.


Last edited by Geobaldi on 6/12/2011 12:00:08 AM