Ben-DutkaWell, obviously, it was the start of a new era for PSXE this week. We're happy it has begun. 🙂
Of COURSE you lost fans with DAII
I still say Dragon Age II is a great game, but the fact that it was sub-elite bugged me, and the fact that it lacked standard hardcore role-playing elements bugged me even more. One town, a complete lack of exploration, and we can only fully equip the lead character, which we also can't build from the ground up. The thing that confuses the hell out of me is why it was ever done in the first place. Why ? BioWare knows RPGs. They know what the fans want. I'm sure they do. I'm just desperately trying to figure out how these design ideas succeeded…how in God's name did all these new features – or lack thereof – get approved?
How could they not know they'll be irritating their fans ? It's just too bizarre. I can't figure it out at all. One could make the argument that they wanted to make a more "mainstream" game, but Dragon Age is very clearly for the hardcore, for the niche RPG lovers. Nobody in the mainstream/casual group will touch it, and a few more "action-y" elements won't change their minds. So why compromise the winning formula? I don't get it.
Yeah, you better keep Gears on the 360
Because it may be the last Xbox exclusive left that I care about. CliffyB says PlayStation 3 fans have "zero chance" of getting Gears of War and I'm just fine with that. If it went multiplatform, I'd probably ditch the 360 entirely. Well, I would if we found out the next Alan Wake would be on the PS3. As it is, the 360 gathers a sh** ton of dust; I have little to no reason to touch it, so by all means, let Microsoft keep Gears . As time goes on this generation, I have to question the reason to even own a 360; it seems so…superfluous at this point. Gears is enough of a reason for me to keep it, but other than that…
That being said, I'm sure I'll end up with the next Xbox, just because I really like having two platforms each generation. Eventually, one platform typically ends up being the dominant one in my entertainment center; a long time ago, that used to be something with "Nintendo" on the box. But for the past three generations, it has never been Nintendo and really, it has never really been close…
Personal gaming update
People can bi*** and whine all they want; Duke Nukem Forever blew. I wasn't about to torture myself any further. Dungeon Siege III was good, though, and I'm glad to finally have a decent old-school dungeon-crawler this generation. I also have to get going on F.E.A.R. 3 for next week and I have high expectations for that one. However, that's all work-related; I really just want to get back to inFamous 2 . That game rules and it's painful to be away from it for so long!
And yes, the PSX Home Show is here and we hope you've seen it. Don't worry, more are coming – Episode 2 might be up for this Thursday – and as I said earlier , we're making that PSXE party a routine thing for every debut of a new show. We'll be sure to keep you informed right here, and don't forget about the possibility of more giveaways. Maybe a "bring a friend to the PSXE Show, and be entered to win" deal…
But anyway, hope everyone is satisfied and at least a little excited for the future. 🙂
I wanna give DS3 a try if it really is like Champions…
Yup, DAII had its shining moments but overall it was tedious, claustrophobic, too actiony, and ultimately without a point. DAIII is now a a wait and see. If they don't bring back a traversable world and the old fighting mechanic I will reduce it to bargain bin status and weep softly into a pillow at the death of another promising RPG franchise because of the "faster and dumber" approach, to quote Ben.
Yeah Duke is pretty bad, but it's not without it's old school charm. I really do hope this game doesn't finally kill off Duke Nukem. He deserves better and deserves a real comeback title. Make it happen Gearbox, do it as an apology for releasing that game.
I'll beat Duke at some point because I just have to. I'm also playing and loving Alice: Madness Returns. So glad I didn't cancel that preorder. The game doesn't deserve a lot of the low scores, it's just a dated style of action adventure but it's still really good.
Recieved Mirrors Edge and I've got Dissidia 012 on the way, add my backlog to that and I'll be plenty busy until WKC2 arrives.
Reading Moby Dick again, I don't think it's supposed to be as funny as I find it but I love Ishmael's commentary and Queequeg's bizarre behavior. The book just cracks me up.
This time I'm going through with a highlighter to pick out the best quotes.
I liked Moby Dick but there's one part where Melville just goes WAY too far describing the whole whaling process.
Nobody ever needs to know that much about whaling. Not even for the purpose of the book. 'yawn'
yeah I remember that part, it's pretty well skippable.
If you liked Dissidia World, you're really going to like Dissidia 2. Especially Lightening and Tifa.
Your friends can't use their characters or collect loot when playing multiplayer in DS3
For a game that is best experienced with friends, that really hurts the game.
I got to hand it to you Ben. You really told it like it is in this Week In Review.
By the way, I really want to know when the Hero Edition of Infamous 2 is going to be on sale on Amazon. I'm just a few dollars short of buying it at its current price of 94.99
Last edited by Danny007 on 6/18/2011 10:13:43 PM
It's on sale at EB Games…? 🙂
Don't wait too long, they may just run out.
i dunno world, killzone 3 helgast edition went down to 60 at frys within a month. they still have helgast editions there for 50 bucks right now.
You're probably right but I don't know how the inFamous 2 sales will shake out. Killzone just can't seem to get its just dues or the sales it deserves. The same is probably true of inFamous.
I will never understand why these games aren't given their due credit. I had to check out Metacretic, inFamous 2 got an 83 while inFamous 1 got an 85. I'm not sure what these "better" games are that people are playing. I'm pretty sure they don't exist. If I were to review inFamous, I would give it a 9/10 and inFamous 2 a 9.5/10. These games are just brilliant. Haters are going to hate I guess.
Tell me about it Jawknee, inFamous is just WAY too good. I'd like to know how games can get more highly rated. They're both incredibly solid, and just about the most fun I've ever had with a game.
I agree with you jawknee and lawless. Jawknee and I have been talking bout it over PSN and both games are just so well done and inFAMOUS 2 improved in all areas over the first. Such good games again not getting their just due. But that's fine because I enjoyed the crap out of both and even after finishing i2 a couple days ago am still addicted to the solid yet very fun gameplay.
Last edited by bigrailer19 on 6/19/2011 2:02:33 PM
I got into a bit of a debate with a friend the other day when I said MS completely dropped the ball with the 360 and that it's kinda pointless to own one, and the only comeback he had was "well the ps3 has terrible network security". I laughed.
You should of said, "At least the PS3 has games. Where is the rest of the 360 line up? " 😛
Or, "what are you on, like your 6th 360?" =)
It's always strange to me how the argument of the 360 fanboy never, EVER seems to be about the actual games.
…odd, I thought that's why we all did this.
I think it's because 360 fanboy's care more about who has the bigger junk than they do about games. Funny how your friend failed to realize LIVE has been hacked a number of times. We just didn't hear as much about it because the gaming media is stuck on MS's nuts.
Trying to talk games with any fanboy is pointless. Fanboys are very much mired in ignorance. It's almost as if praising another system without a side note(Alan Wake is good, but those stupid Xbots didn't appreciate it or PSN is good, but those Sony guys never use mics. It's like a ghost town.)somehow diminishes their favorite system, which is tantamount to diminishing them as a person.
For games, I could point out the mental toughness it takes to best a Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn or Zak and Wiki; the great art design and gameplay of a Sin and Punishment 2: Star Successor or Muramasa: The Demon Blade; the platforming masterpieces of Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii; the endearing nature of a Little King's Story or A Boy and his Blob or Kirby's Epic Yarn; the amazing atomosphere of a Fragile Dreams – Farewell Ruins of The Moon or Monster Hunter Tri; the countless lost hours in Rune Factory: Frontier or Animal Crossing: City Folk; or the twisted fun insanity of a Warioware: Smooth Moves, which has you shaving a guy's beard in one instant, fanning a giant robot off the side of a mountain the next, and picking a giant nose the following. Now, is pointing out those games to change one's view of the Wii? Is it going to validate it in any way? Of course not. If the Wii is deemed crap, then crap it must be.
I could point out the great RPGs the 360 has in Fable 2 and 3, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Magna Carta 2, Too Human, Tales of Vesperia, and Infinite Undiscovery. The greatness of Alan Wake. Great snowboarding in Amped 3 and Stoked: Big Air Edition. Shmups like DeathSmiles 1 and 2. Great XBLA stuff like Limbo, Super Meat Boy, Comic Jumper, Trials HD, Shadow Complex and Ilomilo. Quirky, off the wall titles, like Deadly Premonition, Earth Defense Force 2017, Viva Pinata and Operation: Darkness. The craziness of a Condemned: Criminal Origins and Ninja Blade. Strategy gems like Halo Wars and Culdcept Saga. Or you could delve deep into why Halo: Reach with Forge is the best console fps multiplayer around. But listing those doesn't make the 360 more attractive to anyone that has already said they don't want one or make anyone have any more respect for the system.
So if you read all that and didn't say. "Hm. Maybe i should check some of those out." then my point is made. Debating games is futile.
PGU: Record of Agarest War Zero with a light dusting of inFamous 2.
I'll admit Porky, that some of the Wii games are very interesting indeed. However, not everyone is enamoured by the motion controls, and while some of them may be playable on the classic controller, not all of them are. As for the 360, as I've stated countless times, I'd love to play Gears and Alan Wake, hell I'd even be willing to throw Vesperia and Lost Odyssey up there, but that's all. For me, that simply isn't enough to warrant spending $450AUD on, especially when looking at the line-up going forward.
That being said, I'll admit that I can be something of a fanboy, but at least I'm willing to see the merits of a system, even if I choose not to acknowledge them. That being said, the above discussion was more about the people themselves, rather than the system or its games, and I have to agree with the others. I haven't yet had a 'discussion' with an 360-only owner that didn't result in their falling back on what the system has that the PS3 doesn't rather than the games on offer, simply because the *blockbuster* line-up isn't comparable. You can list second and third rate titles all you like, but when you choose to talk about the known quantities, the titles that everyone knows and the highest rated exclusives out there, there is no comparison whatsoever.
Peace.
Right, you can't compare them. But, not in the way that you are implying, with superiority being on the PS3's side in every instance. How do you compare Gears and Uncharted? Their aims are polar opposites. How do you compare Heavy Rain and what some deem it's counterpart, Alan Wake? Two entirely different games. Same with Halo vs Killzone.
And honestly, even if you were debate them, how could your mind be changed? You like Uncharted and what's important to you in that game (characters, gameplay, graphics) may not be important to another gamer so Uncharted is not the gem to them as it is to you. But if they really love Gears, can they convince you it's better?
That was kind of my point. Even if it were to fall to a games debate, it's futile, so it's not a big deal that it never does.
And just because it's not a known quantity does not mean that it a 'second and third rate' title. That's the fall back of the uninformed, friend. Like 'I don't like the PS3 because I don't like Uncharted or God of War', 'I don't like the Wii because I don't like Mario or Zelda.', or 'I don't like the 360 because I don't like Gears or Halo.' I hear that a lot and the only response I can give is that each has much more to offer than what's dubbed 'best', 'well-known' or 'elite'.
@matt99,
The 360 is kinda pointless to own? Are you a comedian by any chance? It's your opinion so i'll let you off my whinge radar but imo i find the 360 a great console personally. Your friend has a point, SONY's online service isn't that great but hey it's free so i won't complain…..
The exclusives are good ones to me; Dead or Alive 4, the original Dead Rising, Left 4 Dead 1 & 2, Gears of War, Forza, Alan Wake, the original Mass Effect & the love for arcade fighting games that Xbox Live have available at the moment really makes me proud to own one. The PS3 is also a great console with great exclusives, they both are good actually.
& seriously, a fanboy is a fanboy; PS3 gimps are just as bad as xbots, so don't kid yourself & group hug one another like a team, PS3 fanboys are just as bad on 360 only sites & vice versa. It's a disease & no matter what platform your tongue is planted too, fanboys will act like fanboys. We really do need a cure one of these days. I know this is a SONY site, but open a window & clear the fog, just because within the confines of this Playstation love circle you see some xbots about, doesn't mean they're the only ones that god breeds. I know it's difficult, but let's quit the monkey logic.
PGU: I played Duke Nukem, wish i didn't but i did, & yeah i reckon the game stinks but i know alot of Duke fans that will defend it. Cute for them. I've also been playing some Alice: Madness Returns & i'm loving it. The art style is great & the game is a genuine surprise to me.
I am also hugely anticipating that Silent Hill collection, Dead Island & the new Tomb Raider, Among many others.
This year will hurt my bank balance.
Last edited by Kevin555 on 6/19/2011 5:00:20 AM
Porkchop,
I agree with most of your first comment. What one person finds appealing doesn't necessarily fall in line with what another person would. As for comparing games, it really does depend on the games in question. I, for example, do think that it is fair to compare Halo with Killzone. Both are sci-fi FPS games, and even though the style of gameplay that you are asked to utilise is different the fundamental elements remain very similar. The other two I will gladly agree upon though.
As for your second comment, would you really consider Amped, Condemned, Earth Defence Force, Too Human or Viva Pinata to be AAA titles? While they may not be terrible titles, they simply can't match up to the big names and that is why I consider them second rate, not necessarily because they're less well known. Quality does very much play a role in the choices of many a gamer.
Finally, at no point did I mean to imply that the PS3 is superior in every way. The games may not align, but in terms of sheer number and diversity of the high class titles, it is indisputable that the PS3 wins out. That is what I meant with my post.
Kevin,
Y'know, it's funny. Civility reigns here, I think because most people have fairly similar tastes and ideals, but taking a look around the internet at sites that deal with all consoles, you'll quickly find flame wars on damn near every article coming from all sides of the fence. It's quite sad really that it isn't ended more quickly by the moderators. Even with the size of sites such as IGN and CVG, it should be more than possible to stamp out the rampant BS that seems to be carried on almost constantly. But yeah, you're definitely right about culprits springing from every direction, and that it needs to end somehow. It's ultimately pointless to carry brand loyalty to the point that you're willing to actively jump up and down and carry on like a braindead lunatic just to get across the OPINION that your choice is better than anothers. Ah well. That's society for ya…
Peace.
Last edited by Lawless SXE on 6/19/2011 5:07:20 AM
Well, Lawless, I read for the second that you think that Forza 3 is a second-rate simulator with what I percieve is minimal play time. So, I'm not sure how you can say such a thing without significant time on the controller, but if it works for you to keep repeating it, good on you.
As far as my picks, none of them are AAA, but they are all great. But when did I compare them to AAA titles? You're acting as if it's not elite, then it's not worth mentioning, and as a gamer, that's a strange thing to say.
Like i said before, and stick by, all three systems have great games. Delving title by title to say 'Look! See! We got THIS one! You don't!' is for fanboys who need to assure themselves constantly that their decision is right and superior. I don't need to do that at all.
live was not hacked in the same way psn where EVERY account was lost. the xbox live accounts were taken over by obtaining info from the isp's, and other third partys. it wasn't live itself that was hacked but rather a third party. totally diferent kind of hack that only affected a small number of accounts.
listen the 360 has some good games and its not to blame everytime a sony exclusive gets a score that's lower than what ps3 fans expect. to use one of ben's phrases, i think there are a lot of butthurt ps3 fans that like blame ms for every single problem sony has had. a game gets a slightly lower score…it's becuase of xbox fans. nobody's talking about the games themselves. it's a vast conspiracy against sony.
PORKCHOP makes a lot of good points. i would love to play gears, lost oddessy, aw, crackdown, and halo. i don't have a 360, but i'm not stupid enough to say the 360 has no games. it didn't get where it did by not having games.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 6:29:58 AM
Ah, Porkchop, I'm afraid that you misjudge my intent. I will admit that my time with Forza 3 is not as great as I would like it to be, but it is clear that the simulation aspects are not near as accurate as GT5, though as I have stated, it is infinitely more playable as a game. I have stated that each time, and I stand by it, which makes me believe that you are simply trying to pick apart my previous statements to find an argument. A most unsavoury tactic.
I believe that we are operating on different wavelengths as to the AAA ideal. To quote yourself – "And just because it's not a known quantity does not mean that it a 'second and third rate' title". In my eyes, AAA is the absolute top-tier of development, and as such anything below that is to be considered second rate. That is how I came to the, admittedly wrong, conclusion that you were comparing them.
Perhaps I should have clarified that in my initial post, as I feel that it is a simple misunderstanding on both parts. I said that each of them was worth taking note of, but that they are of a lower quality standard, and most gamers will simply glance over them were they to see them upon the shelf. Time is precious, and most people have not enough of it, nor money, to try out every title. That being said, I'll gladly purchase lesser titles after a considerable price drop if they interest me. I meant only to take the view of the average gamer in this respect.
If you have plans to continue this discussion, I welcome it, though I must soon go to sleep. By all means, post and I will get back to you in the morning, if I have time, or tomorrow afternoon.
Peace.
That was a joke by the way, if you can't take a joke you guys need to take a chill pill.
But Clamedus, Ninja Blade, Blue Dragon and Too Human are quite possibly, and not to mention arguably, some of the greatest games of all time.
All of which are third only to Haze and Lair.
=p
Excelsior, accounts have been stolen from MS. You need to get your facts straight. Granted it wasn't on the same scale but it did happen. Also Sony was targeted for malicious reasons. Just because it hasent happened to MS on the same scale doesn't mean it can't happen especially given their poor track record when it comes to security.
Kevin, seriously, where do you get off lecturing anyone with your smug and self righteous attitude? As Lawless said, civility reigns here and it's obviously something you lack. Ben was the one who initially said it's becoming pointless to own an Xbox as this gen moves on. Why didn't you take issue with what he said? Are to you much of a coward to confront Ben, so instead you have to attack a commentors for having a different opinion than you do? Knock it off, your posts are irritating to read.
Lol Temjin. xD
But joking aside, I like you Porky, I do. But man, here's you and Lawless having a thoughtful discussion. That's good and all, but the evidence Porky. I mean, seriously. The greatness found in many of those games are few and far between, and if several of those games are to be considered "great" then you just as well consider 90% of every game released as great.
360 had about 3 great years for gamers like me. Between the better optimized multi-plats and the handful of timed exclusives, the momentum was in their favor for a while. But for those keeping score, with release dates and firsts aside, there's no denying the lineup MS has going forward to is anything but outstanding and especially disappointing by someone like myself.
In fact, they're being downright offensive with their KINECT front they're trying to pull over on everyone. Shame shame.
But to be agreeable to an extent. I understand what you're saying about the guarded emotional boundaries fans create for themselves in terms of dismissing what could be considered praiseworthy if only their hearts weren't hardened to the opposition.
Temjin,
The change of culture at MS is saddening. The old guard made an honest attempt to release good games. Now they are on cruise control. Now, I don't have a problem with Kinect, per se. I like the fact that MS supports the peripheral that 10 million people purchased. I'd like even more 'hardcore support', but it's not like great studios are a dime a dozen. Maybe they are gearing up some for their next system. I have no idea.
But you are speaking the truth, the gap between the 360 and PS3 is ever widening.
Xbox = westernizing our good old games to become as popular as cod or GTA enough said. I would call it the worse console ever released in the market.
the attacks on live accounts were social engineering attacks involving taking ownership of someones id with another company(webhosts, email) and is a failing those companies security.
it has to be done on an individual bases, and is not considered a network hack.
to compare those tiny attacks on live to psn's 70 million accounts breached is nuts. not to mention the huge psn outage.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 1:25:53 PM
i did look it up. it's not like i'm making it up. those were not considered network hacks. if you took off your sony glassess you might see that. to compare those thousands of hacks to 70 million. jesus.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 1:49:38 PM
I am not going to argue with you out about this Excelsior as you seem to be impervious to simple facts and universal truths. To steal an analogy Temji used once, it's like trying to catch a rodent with my bare hands. I'm not talking about the "social engineering attacks" or whatever you want to call them. I have linked it before, I am not going to do it again. You're a big boy, you can go look it up for yourself. Xbox LIVE has indeed been hacked were personal data was stolen. Frankly, I am getting a sick and tired of you trying to carry the anti-Sony presses water. Please go regurgitate your propaganda else where.
Also, Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with this so watch your mouth.
Last edited by Jawknee on 6/19/2011 1:52:08 PM
Jawknee,
I believe he's referring to the current 'hack' which is actually just a bunch of login details from a whole bunch of sites, and no real way of knowing what password belong to which user. XBL included among them.
Last edited by Lawless SXE on 6/19/2011 1:59:53 PM
i don't want to argue either. i did look up the live hacks on google and all i could find were minor things like the social enginerering attacks that are employed to trick a third party into giving out info. i also found instances of phishing hacks on live where idiots gave out there info to get xbox live points. i couldn't find an instance where the network itself was hacked. i will keep looking though.
the bottom line is this. was live ever hacked in a way that disrupted service? no. they did have an outage for 14 days becuase of server overloads. that's a pretty big outage that i always try to bring up when debating with xbox fans, the funny thing is nobody remembers it.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 2:16:28 PM
I know what hes referring to. It's besides the point. The point is it has been hacked before, the severity aside, it has happened. The hack I am referring too happened a few years ago were personal data was indeed stolen.
Excelsior, I already said severity aside, LIVE has been breached in the same way just not on the same scale.
Last edited by Jawknee on 6/19/2011 3:07:22 PM
after going through 5 pages on google of xbox live hacks i can find no hack where live itself was penetrated and info was taken out of it. i certainly can't find evidence of a hack that cuased any outage. i can't find a hack that occurred the same way sony's did. firewalls were not breached and info taken out.
i think the less said about hacks the better for sony and ms. although i think ms track record with live security has been better than sony's with psn where they lost info on EVERY single account they had. i just don't think those small in scope hacks on ms are a valid comparison to sony's extensive breach.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 3:34:03 PM
First of all I never said it caused an outage. Secondly this wasn't that hard to find. My point still stands. LIVE has been hacked and peoples accounts were compromised.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/xbox-live-hacked-accounts-stolen/131
Last edited by Jawknee on 6/19/2011 3:35:58 PM
i don't know….Its an endless cycle are they really gamers? is it a trend?
So I heard someone in college saying the Playstation 3 is for nerds. Fanboys? no its a new breed following sports that have been born since the fated popularity of the games industry, EA sports and Call of Duty.
not saying it didn't happen but it must have been small in scale. i stand by my statement. ms hacks tiny in comparison to sony's. i think i have no more to say on the matter unless this link shows a big breach in live itself then i concede it did happen but my god it's burried in the internet.
Excelsior, you seem to be trying to argue against a point I never made in the first place for the sake of starting and argument. The only point I made was that LIVE has been hacked before and peoples info was compromised and/or stolen. I never said it was on par or on the same scale as the PSN hack. Only that it has happened and can happened again at anytime to anyone. Now just drop it and move on. This conversation s boring the hell out of me.
you were the one that said live has been hacked a number of times. i just pointed out that most of those were different kinds of hacks and not the same extent. i don't even know what we are arguing about but you always have to have the last word. tiny hacks vs every account lost.
i know that's a bummer for people that have sony goggles on. to use one of your phrases. man up and deal with the fact there is no comparison between small isolated hacks vs an entire network hack on psn that cuased sony to loose data on every account they had. live has never been knocked down by hackers.
this reminds me of when i said sony could be a class act but i thought jack trentton had made some rude comment that were almost greenburg like. you said i committed slander. all i said was i thought jacks qoute about the ds being a baby sitting tool and no self respecting 20 yr old would be caught with one was almost greenburg like in tone. yet, i got called out for expressing my opinion.
again, my opinion is most of those hacks on live were not network hacks, but social engineering hacks and are not to same extent or scale on live. i think we agree on the scale part of that at least. peace.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 6:46:30 PM
You are quite possibly one of the most insufferable and annoying commentators on this site. You just do not know when to quit.
btw, i find a lot of your posts equally irritating. especially when you make rude comments to people for just expressing an opinion or pointing out a different point of view. i forgot you are the one that thinks sony is perfect and pure. there are no bad multiplats, either. everything's just perfect.
you can't let things go either. a pattern you have displayed for awhile. you always have to have the last word.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 7:05:01 PM
good now the link is up the discussion can move forward. that zd.net one of 2007was one of the first ones i found on xbox live hacks. if you dig a little further though you will find that those were considered social engineering hacks where people tricked bungie.net(third party), and ms customer service(over the phone) into giving out info. i just don't consider that a network hack. you said ms was hacked in the same way sony was but link to non network hack in my humble opinion. that's what the debate is about. i don't live was hacked the same way sony was.
is tricking third party into disclosing info or getting ms customer service to do the same over the phone really considered a network hack? sure live accounts were comprimised, but was on an individual basis. not really the same as a network hack. i will concede live account were compromises, but not in the same way.
Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/19/2011 9:21:24 PM