Ben-DutkaOh, now what?
After reassuring users that all was well in the world of Sony Online Entertainment last week, it seems a new problem has arisen: SOE is down for maintenance and in a statement issued this morning, they said:
"In the course of our investigation into the intrusion into our systems, we have discovered an issue that warrants enough concern for us to take the service down effectively immediately."
Grand. But we're hoping SOE learned a valuable lesson after Sony came under fire for not detailing the PSN attack last week. If personal information has been compromised in any way, we assume SOE would've let us know about it; if it's more technical on their end and doesn't really affect the customer, that's something else.
But whatever the problem is, we're sincerely hoping this doesn't turn into last week. That was just brutal, and Sony really doesn't want to have to go through that again.
I hope this doesnt effect PSN coming back up lol
Different service, so it shouldn't affect it at all.
Still though, this has a different feel than the PSN bricking. It's probably technical. My guess would be patch-work.
They detected an intrusion. Thousands of credit card details were stolen in another attack on SOE systems.
The credit card data was from 2007 though.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/02/sony-woes-continue-as-soe-confirms-data-breach/
Yeah, seems grim. I like highlander's description below. Seems legit.
Well, I'm thinking this is either a case of them finding a big known vulnerability in their systems ,that is known to have been exploited, so they have to take things down immediately and fix it…Or someone planted a back door in their system…Or someone was still in their system…Or someone planted a virus/trojan of some kind during the main intrusion.
One hopes that details will be forthcoming soon.
As much as SOE and SNEI/SNEA don't want to go through last week again, I expect that right now, they are in a state of high alert and are taking immediate action on anything. If some of the web servers that host SOE remained un-patched with known vulnerabilities, taking them down for maintenance at this time would be a great option. I'd have to wonder whether they also decided to just go ahead and rebuild some of their servers if that's the case, just like PSN. It's the safest course to take.
Last edited by TheHighlander on 5/2/2011 10:31:03 AM
I think they're playing safe with the events of last week in mind, so they are not taking chances and making sure that any abnormalities are ironed out before placing precious customers at risk.
The fact a slight abnormality has made them shut down the network entirely just reaffirms my trust in Sony. They'd rather lose money than risk customer information being stolen. Like Sony, I play it safe. I test the water before jumping in.
Well, now that PSN is on the up again, Sony is probably conducting a complete audit of all it's online services, and looking for known vulnerabilities to patch and architectural weaknesses to fix. Although SOE doesn't appear to have been the target of the main attack, it's possible someone thought that they might leave a back door in place there, especially if the servers had vulnerabilities.
I'd imagine that if during the course of their review they find a dangerous vulnerability they'd want to take things down and patch/rebuild immediately.
God I'm so sick of this charade…
Hopefully PSN will not be affected by this
I wouldn't call it a charade, that denotes falsehood.
the link would be to higlander in the article about psn and goodwill gesture. the apache servers that were hosting psn were wide open becuase somebody had forgotten to patch them out during an upcoming move to new facility. it's aslo been discussed at the sixth axis. and and confirmered that's how the breach happened..
Well this sucks for all the dc universe players,twice as much if your playing on ps3!
Its a sad day when people cant go online and pretend to be superheroes/villans doing quests 'n' such,for me not being able to pretend to be a us marine killing countless insurgents and chinese pla troops with my bro online makes me a sad panda 🙁
Oh no…
great. really just getting to the point where i'm at a loss for words. especially after finding out the servers that hosted psn were wide open while they were upgrading to a new facility. it was no exotic hack or exploit that cuased this disaster. sony just didn't bother securing the servers and the hackers walked right in. i think that says a lot about how seriously took security before this mess.
Where did you "hear" that from? Let's see a link and preferably one from a reliable source.
xbot dot com doesn't count.
Wow.
Microsoft hackers have been busy. 😉
Well, As much as I like to hate on Microsoft, I don't for one pico-second believe that they have any direct or indirect involvement. Not even to the extent that they might have uttered a phrase not unlike "Won't someone rid me of this troublesome priest!". I wouldn't doubt that they have been delighted by Sony's issues.
Oh, either do I, hence the wink at the end.
Wow. Just wow.
Atleast they took it down as soon as they noticed it.
Hopefully they just found something that could be made more secure as to avoid what happened with the psn, and not found something before it was too late and someone was already in…
lol this is getting silly. And expensive for Sony.
My advice to you SOE, be upfront. RIGHT AWAY. As in, right now. Don't wait 5 days and issue a Q&A and "clarifications".
My advice for you is to take a reality check. If you operate a network with millions of customers, you tell people what you know, when you know it. Sony acknowledged the attack almost immediately PSN was shut down. It rather seems that the decision to shut it down took Sony management by surprise, and so it took 12-24 hours for a coherent message to be released. Considering the amount of triage being done on the network, that's not a huge surprise. Sony didn't make a definitive statement about what information had been accessed until they knew – based on analysis of the attack, what had been compromised. Up to that point the assumption was that pretty much everything could have been accessed.
What were Sony supposed to do while doing the investigation? They'd already advised users of the attack and suggested caution. Sorry, but you have incredibly unrealistic expectations in this regard. You're not alone in that, but they're still unrealistic.
My advice to you is to stop spewing your speculation on what happened as fact. How do you know Sony absolutely didn't know if user's information was compromised until 12-24 before they said they did?
I'm well aware of your extensive background in the field, and I know that you know more about the programming side of things than I ever will. But I'll let you in on a little secret: big corporations lie. They have in the past, and they will now. Especially when it comes to damage control of something as disastorious and costly as this past week and a half has been for Sony. I'm not saying that Sony hasn't been honest in this case, but I have plenty of reason to raise on eyebrow. Don't be so naive to think that Sony would tell us "what they know when they know it", especially when it'll hurt their stock and brand image like it did.
Sony's vow to silence for the first 5 days of the outage is why they're currently facing lawsuits and heat from politicians. Hence, my suggestion to SOE to not make the unthinkable mistake twice.
Last edited by jimmyhandsome on 5/2/2011 11:54:41 AM
Jimmy,
You're whole comment style is getting old. I know they didn't know because they engaged third parties to do the analysis and it takes time, I also know because they Stated that.
I'll let you in on one big secret, I work for big corporations, I know them pretty well. I'll let you in on another secret, I have two decades of experience in IT and have worked in system security many times. My thoughts on this topic are as ever based my own knowledge in the field and the information I can fine through research.
Your whole commenting style feels driven by immature anger and paranoia. You accuse me of being naive, and yet your entire argument and post is based on nothing but paranoid speculation and conclusion jumping. If that's the best you can to, I'm really beginning to think that reading and answering your comments is pointless.
No offense, jimmy, but a lot of what you say just reeks of anti-business, anti-corporation, i.e., everyone who runs big companies lie and cheat and screw over consumers on a daily basis.
…that's just a little tiresome, is all.
@jimmyhandsome
You have to consider also the time differences and who is at what office at what time and where etc…all of that plays a factor in calling and getting a hold of the right people in a MULTI-NATIONAL corporation…it's not as easy as just pulling a switch and taking out the entire PSN, I'm not terribly well versed in Networking and even I know that. Sony is compartmentalized to a degree and naturally by continetal seperations. They also don't want to make a quick comment to the public and it's consumers unless their sure because making the wrong comment can not only damage their sales and day to day business, it can also send their stocks into a God**n panic.
Blame the hackers. Not Sony. I think they jumped the gun on telling us info. They told everyone to watch their CC info and be cautious. Turns out… CC info is fine. Even the CC companies say so.
If they really had a vow of silence, I doubt that CC news would have even seen daylight.
Lastly, when you get a 3rd party and the FBI involved, they don't just sort of tell you everything as it's happening. That's sort of PR 101.
LOL
Gotta love arguments whose basis on "Facts" comes solely from the book Conspiracy Theory 101.
That's funny, I was just thinking about how I can't stand your comment style either. How you blatantly talk down to others you may disagree with. Its very aggressive, "immature and angry". I posted my opinion on the matter of what SOE should do, and you swoop in, essentially tell me that I'm wrong for thinking differently than you, call me unrealistic, insult me by saying I need a reality check, then hand me a digital copy of your resume telling me how much more experience you have. I was simply fighting fire with fire, Highlander. It's ridiculous that you have the gonads to tell me you think my posts are "angry" when you display the same anger yourself.
And I'm well aware of your credentials. I mentioned that earlier so you wouldn't have to repeat yourself. You said all of those things before. I get it. *waves white flag* This is me conceding the fact that you know more than me. I acknowledged you have plenty of experience in the field, and that you know what you're talking about when it comes to this whole situation.
Since we're talking working experience/education I also work for a corporation. And have worked for others. I have a bachelors in business, and working toward my masters as we speak. I have studied plenty of case studies of companies lying/misleading their customers, and taken a couple of classes on business ethics. All those things happen on a daily basis. This isn't me being some "conspiracy theorist" or some whackjob claiming Osama bin Laden isn't really dead. My point was that you should think about this with more of an open mind and not accept what Sony spoon feeds you. You're free to use the facts and your extensive background experience to form your own opinion on the matter. Much how I will do the same. And its a-ok if we disagree with this, but please don't call me paranoid or tell me I'm unrealistic about what I demand from a company that already has plenty of my money.
Whether or not Sony told the truth, they appear to be caught with their pants down over this entire incident. Ultimately its the suits/managers that make the call on when to inform the public, not the programmers they have working in-house or the outside experts they brought in. And the managers have TONS of reasons not to be truthful during this whole ordeal. Sony knows they dropped the ball with either the breach itself, the extent of it, or the time it took to make announcements; which is why they had a press conference and announced a free month of PS Plus for all users as part of their "Welcome Back" program. Its all PR nonsense and damage control so they don't lose any(more) customers and keep shareholders happy by hopefully raising the stock with these announcements (which it did).
This is why the politicians are jumping at this opportunity to attack videogames again. No doubt they will try to make Sony out as not having enough security of their user's information or not relaying the attack quick enough to it's users(some of which are children! Oh my, not the evil videogame company exploiting America's youth!). This SOE issue might be nothing, just simple patch work like you claim. But if its down for a prolonged period of time- AND SONY KNOWS IT'LL BE- they should come forward and say that now before they get any more bad press from some Senator in Washington. That's all I was trying to convey before.
He didn't say you were wrong for thinking differently than him. He said you were wrong because you were wrong.
And Jimmy, the ONLY time we've ever agreed is when I backed down and apologized for being rude.
You never admit when someone else might be right.
Even after they've proven to be so.
Lastly, lots of us have degrees. Some of us have multiple degrees. I've learned while here that there are many many educated people with great POV who may be right and not me. Even the younger members in high school have had some wonderful things to say while here on this site.
At any rate, your business degree would only give you education on possibly some Public relations. Not to the extent of someone with a degree in PR, but some. And your natural reation is probably. TELL THE CONSUMERS! BE HONEST!
But the reality is, when an investigation is underway, only the shareholders are entitled to info. Sony did more than they needed to. Additionally, Sony did more by saying what they knew as they knew it with about 24 hours to write up and deliver an official statement. I think, in regards to how long it takes to find out what was stolen, Highlander is more likely to know what he's talking about.
Lastly, over time, I've noticed that Highlander only shows up to say what he thinks when he's pretty damn sure he knows the answer. He doesn't assume and has backed down on things he isn't sure of. I've seen it.
In you, I have not observed this type of behaviour before.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/2/2011 1:22:48 PM
@ Ben
Ha, it's quite the opposite, actually. Sorry its tiresome for you.
@ Underdog
I might be wrong. Highlander might be wrong. But guess what? This a discussion forum and you all are complete strangers. This website is fueled by these debates and the comments come in exponentially. I find it to be fun to argue on what is essentially meaningless issues. Imagine how boring it would be if no one posted an opinion if they felt others would disagree with them?
And I know almost everyone here has degrees. Highlander constantly throws his experience around in his arguments, so I figured I'd do the same. It's a different POV. Sorry to rattle so many feathers.
Last edited by jimmyhandsome on 5/2/2011 1:37:26 PM
"My advice to you is to stop spewing about speculation as fact."
And you're upset he used his experience as a point? You gave him no other option! It is -THE- reason it isn't speculation. It's the only rebuttle for why he knows it to be fact. How could you not grasp that?!?!?
Do you see the problem here?
Do you get why that might be tiresome?
Do you not see how that doesn't foster a friendly debate over a hostile one?
You can't sort of pick and choose which good points get to be good points.
you can't sort of essentially tell people they're morons then justify it by saying it's "fun and meaningless".
@ Underdog,
I'm not upset at all that he used his past experience and the facts he had available to form his own opinion on the matter. I was upset that I recognized his experience in IT, and he still brings it up in a condescending way to almost undermine what I have to say.
What I don't understand is why I'm not allowed to have a different opinion on this incident based off of MY experience?
And I've rarely seen Highlander have a "friendly" debate. He usually does what I says, and comes at you hard not wanting to hear at all what the opposition has to say. I heard him out, I understand why he thinks the way he does. Where did I "essentially tell him he's a moron"?
Last edited by jimmyhandsome on 5/2/2011 1:57:12 PM
People here don't like opinions. It's almost not worth sharing opinions here because the people here are so condescending.
What I saw here in this conversation was Jimmy giving his opinion and then Highlander attacking this opinion. Highlander even opened his comment with "My advice for you is to take a reality check." That's rather rude!
But hey, what do I know? I'm not Highlander, Ben, or Underdog therefor I am trash.
@Nlayer
Whatever, man. Get over your self-loathing, dude. This isn't even a debate about an opinion. It's about facts. Jimmy says they didn't tell anyone in time. Highlander points out there is no way they could have gotten it out sooner. It's an objective debate, because they actually agree on the subjective notion that Sony should tell us the moment they know.
Where they disagree, if you read between the lines, is that Jimmy essentially believes they knew before Highlander says they knew. I sided with Highlander because on this type of topic, I trust his judgement based on past discussions I've had with him. This is -actually- the area of his expertise. I find it equally annoying when people tell me how youth behave… that is my main area of expertise. For Jimmy, this is just an area he's dabbled in enough to form an opinion. But I like the evidence Highlander has tabled much more.
Ben merely didn't like his tactics and anti-corporation approach to the discussion.
If you frequent the forums at all, (which you should, as should everyone), you would know I have disagreed with Highlander (recently, actually) on issues and I have disagreed with Ben on more than one occasion as well. The difference is, we've somehow been able to do so without getting all offended. Perhaps it's because we respect each other…. hmm….
The fact of the matter is, personal development improves when you're able to improve yourself not JUST on your own experiences, but from the experiences of others as well. Based on your own values, you need to eat the meat and spit out the bones, so to speak. Jimmy says he's doing that, but I don't see it really. I think he's just saying that because he knows that's how you're supposed to act. I don't think he actually believes that Highlander has good insight, because he's taken none of it away despite saying he has. That's why I disagree so harshly with him.
Lastly, it probably only seems like Highlander is unmovable because he typically only posts larger posts like this on topics he is well polished on. At least in my experience. You would see a much more subjective and reflective approach to discussion from him if you went to the forums once and a while.
I mean, think about your own profession. I don't know what it is, but take an electrician. If someone suggested you hook the white wire to the 'hot' screw on a GFI, he'd tell you you're wrong. And if you responded by telling him it's just your opinion to put white on the hot screw, he'd probably -still- tell you you're wrong. And he'd get offended that you can't take a professional's know how as truth. Such is the case at hand. So yeah… people are going to be unmovable.
P.s. based on Highlander's 5 thumbs up, I assume it's more than just me, him, and Ben that agree with him. I betcha Ben didn't even give him a thumbs up, and I'm fairly confident Highlander didn't thumb himself up.
Please don't use the thumbs up/down as a measure of who is right/wrong. Highlander has the "popular" opinion. That is, that Sony did what they could as quickly as they could for the consumer. Of course people are going to thumb him up. And of course I'm going to be thumbed down for merely suggesting that its possible that Sony wasn't completely honest.
And back to the debate about "facts". As I said before, I don't necessarily even think that Sony lied about not knowing this. All I said was that its certainly a possiblity and was hoping that more people would think of it that way. I'm well aware of why Highlander thinks that they're 100% telling the truth. I get it. I just don't think its fair that he can complete disregard my notion that they might not be.
And as for you to subtly alluding to the fact you don't respect me or my opinion, thats ok with me. To be honest, I'm all set with this double-team effort thats going on. It shouldn't be too surprising to see other's flock to his defense and try to prove me wrong so vehemently.
I find both sides the arguement storng.
I guess it really down what you want to believe in. What sony is telling us, or what we assume, in the end all that doesn't matter what's done is done.
However, I can imagine the slightest is being a CEO of a large company and I would consider telling the public what happened right at the initial point or waiting several days later. Sony clearly stated they learned of it on 17-19 of April so, proves they had knowledge about it.
Now if they shut off the network then and told the consumers the moment they tried to log onto the network, that the network got interrupted by an external intrusion, all the law suits might of not happen. Some law suits might arise but that's for the people just looking for attention and thinking they can get something out of sony.
With this in mind, we don't need a masters degree or experience in IT to realize all of this.
In the end I agree with jimmyhandsome and Sony shouldn't pull of the same thing as before and wait a while before telling the customers.
That's like knowing the steak you bought is 5 days past expiration(not but in the freezer) but still cooking it and serving it for people.
Nobody wants bad steak!!!!
In the end, choose what you want to believe in either SONY or your own self, but let me ask you this. "Do you believe everything big large cooperations say?"
@Underdog
the thumbs up here to me is just kicks if you ask me. Just a way of people telling you they like what you have said, not meaning you are right.
What you are implying means that if more people like it, it must be right which is completely wrong.
That's like saying more people have and xbox 360 and since more do it's better than ps3.(excluding wii) Which we all know here is completely wrong. Because they both have their ups and downs.
Last edited by thj_1980 on 5/2/2011 4:34:25 PM
@Jimmy and Nlyaer if you don't like the community GTFO, we were fine before you showed up and we'll be just fine when you leave. Good luck finding a more experienced and knowledgeable group of gamers at IGN or Kotaku.
@JMO_INDY
Whoa guy easy there.
GTFO???? c'mon?
no need for that.
This community is great, even with people coming here to argue it tells us they really want a piece from here, which means it's worth their time here then on Kotuku or IGNorants.
There's no need to sho somebody away.
Kotuka and IGNorants acutally have some good discussions there, but it is outweighed and covered up by immature idiots who keep posting useless comments drowning the decent ones down.
Those sites are big for a reason. Maybe it's the layout, or the people that work there other gamers like, but in all honesty I never go to Kotuku since almost hardly interests me, as for IGN I visit rarely.
My main source for news is this and gamespot, for some reason I like gamespot's layout, my only reason of visiting them.
Last edited by thj_1980 on 5/2/2011 5:15:05 PM
Ahhh fine you're right fair enough. I apologize, but I really don't see the point why you would come back to a website you say has a terrible community and still comment there, doesn't make any sense. This community is the best!!!
Nlayer: We have thousands of members and hundreds of comments a day. The idea that three people squash the opinions of others all the time is not only insanely unrealistic but insulting as well.
And everyone else can just stop this. It's not really going anywhere and everyone has made their point. It'll only get personal now, so stop.
mm… I never said more thumbs up means he's right. I -clearly- said it means more people than just me and Ben agree with him. My point was towards NLayer saying that it is false to say only 3 members squash the ideas of others.
And I CLEARLY said that… clearly… no fog… it's there in the text. Honestly, people. Stop spinning what I say. It's getting annoying.
Once again, I never used the thumbs up as an indication he must be right. It was used to say that not just me and ben agree with him. I'm not sure how I could have made that any clearer. Seriously… someone please point out I'm wrong.
The most silly thing about this discussion is how everyone claims to *know* the truth. Where is the documentation that proves that Sony told as *soon* as they knew? There are none. This is all speculation, by *both* sides.
Personally I tend to agree with Jimmy on the general observation that corporations say what they believe is strategically best, and that is not always the truth, or the whole truth.
I mean c'mon, there are *piles* of stories where corporations have been untrue. There are *jokes* about how bad they used to be in earlier years.
Now where are all those stories about corporations being painfully honest? When they placed all their cards on the table? Now that's a tad tougher to find.
Sonys main task regarding information flow is damage control. NOT to inform us. That must be blatantly obvious to all. It's not the technicians who post info to us. Since when did they have the final saying on a companys public info strategy…
Of course most people around here defend Sony. This is, after all, a Sony fansite. But when I see many of the same names who claim that "Sony would never lie to us, never" bash Microsoft & Co for much of the same stuff, well then things start getting ridiculous here.
I am *not* saying that Sony *did* hold back information. What I am saying is that they *could*, and being a corporation is not proof that they *would not*.
Last edited by Beamboom on 5/3/2011 3:40:47 AM
As a PR specialist, I have to say Sony's initial response to this issue was pathetic. It was akin to an airline reponding to reports of a crash by saying, "We cannot locate the plane at this time."
They knew to what extent their system had been hacked before going public, otherwise, they wouldn't have shut PSN down completely.
The point is most companies are not prepared to handle huge crisis. Couple that with the fact that the Japanese are notorious for not being forthcoming with information (Bridgestone tire issues that they blamed on the Ford Explorer, the Toyota gas pedal recall that the U.S. government forced them to initiate, and more recently, the nuclear power plant that nearly melted down), it didn't surprise me with Sony's initial response.
However, American companies are immune to going dark when they need to get information out to their customers.
I have sat in meetings where CEOs have questioned the severity of the issue and asked me to spin the story to make them look good, or they just hoped it boiled over and went away.
All Sony had to do when shutting down was issue a statement immediately stating they had been attacked, they were looking into the situation and had to shut down the PSN. It shouldn't have taken them as long as it did to say so. This would have made them out as the victim and would have afforded them the time needed to analyze the situation without the need to provide minute updates.
With that said, I give Sony an A+++++++++ for how they handled the situation after making their initial statement. The Q&A's, bringing in security experts, the press conference and their plan to bring the system back online should be studied by other companies who find themselves in a similar situation. These actions reaffirmed my decision to purchase Sony products.
If only they would have handled the front end as they did the back end, they would have found less flack and more sympathy.
If only jaybiv's words here could be the final summary of this whole issue.
If only discovering the extent of stolen virtual data were as easy as locating a great big giant smoldering pile of airplane that likely has lots of GPS built in.
lol
But good post.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/3/2011 5:19:13 PM
Wow, just wow…
I really feel like arguing with all of you about this, but it won't change anything. People will just fling more insults towards me. I was only giving my opinion on what I had experienced here at this site.
Welp, since Ben pretty much hurt me, I'll just leave this alone. Sorry if I insulted anyone or anything..
Last edited by Nlayer on 5/4/2011 3:29:09 AM
From what Ive heard SoE was hacked around the same time PSN got hacked… they just didnt take SoE down/say anything about it until the whole PSN this was resolved.. now that theyre doe with that now theyre working on SoE. so in otherwords the SoE hack isnt new.
Where did you hear that? I mean you're implying that SoE flat out lied when they said their servers were not affected by the PSN being down.
If thats true expect an even worse backlash.
Not really Jimmy. Besides, this is almost certainly a case of discovering servers running older versions of some software or known vulnerabilities that require patching. Since Sony apparently knows how PSN was attacked, they may have determined that SOE's systems share similar vulnerabilities and are therefore taking action to rectify it. Either way, panicking or looking for reasons to get angry isn't going to help.