Ben-DutkaWell, this ought to generate plenty of discussion amongst the action aficionados.
If you've been following along with David Jaffe's railing against EA Louse at the designer's blog , you might've already stumbled upon this; if not, Spong stumbled upon it for you. In the comments beneath Jaffe's rant against the soon-to-be infamous EA Louse, a poster named Matthew said- "…to this day God of War series is mired in clunky, poorly automated combat (dodge on the right analog stick lol) and anyone with a clue considers Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, or Ninja Gaiden to have far superior controls and combat mechanics."
Now, that right there is enough to raise the ire of fans and one might think Jaffe would defend his creation – God of War – with great gusto. But you might be surprised at his reply:
"Matheww, you miss the point. We were not trying to go head to head with those games. ANYONE can see the pure technique involved in those games- or games like Bayonetta- blows the doors off GOD OF WAR. They are SUPPOSED to! In GOD OF WAR our goal was to get the player to feel like they were on an adventure that was easy to play, had cool scenarios, puzzles, platforming, etc.
The goal was NEVER to be some amazing combat simulator. Your reaction proves my point: you may not LIKE GOD OF WAR but you don't even stop to think that perhaps there are other goals and ways of doing things, not JUST the ones you like. And if you look at the GOD OF WAR sales compared to those games you mention, clearly- at least from a sales standpoint- we did something right."
Okay, well, here's our two cents on the issue- Jaffe's last point is the most important. While what he says is true, the God of War franchise outstrips the others simply due to better overall quality; each title is almost flawless in design and execution, which is why GoW will always stand head-and-shoulders above NG, DMC and Bayonetta . We do remember telling you Bayonetta had the deepest, most accomplished combat mechanic of the generation (which Jaffe may agree with), but we wouldn't even give the Xbox 360 version as high a score as any GoW. We doubt any critic would.
The point is that GoW's combat isn't broken. Far from it. It's actually pretty close to perfect for what it attempts to achieve. It strives to be both engaging and accessible, and allows us to appreciate other aspects of the production; aspects the developers likely put more effort into than in any DMC or NG title. This all being said, it's interesting to hear how Jaffe separates action experiences into "battle simulators" and non-battle simulators; we always thought it was relatively clear but apparently, it needed clarification.
Yeah, I have to compliment GoW3's fixed camera system. It's usually quite good.
I do see advantages and disadvantages to the chase cam, though (NG, Darksiders etc).
I really don't think about the camera system much with NG. I read about people complaining about it, but I rarely run into the problem because by habit I always know when to press the camera center button whenever needed. Problems crop up in tighter quarters though. When having your back near a wall the camera doesn't center behind you right. It sort of hangs out to the side, obstructing your field of view. I've ran into this problem most often at the Aqua Capital.
What I value most about NG"s camera is how close it places the camera into the action. Reading the opponents subtle gesture animation is very important when pre-emptively reacting to a given situation.
I always liked the mannered combat from the Onimusha games. It shouldn't work with te ResiEvil style tank controls, but it does.
My favourite combat though is in Demons Souls. Super simple to pick up with no combos to learn, but infinate detph in terms of custoising your combat style. Melee or ranged, speed or power, defensive or offensive….you can play that game in whatever style best suits your strenghs as a gamer, and kick some demon butz
Well as a person that owned DMC3 and played DMC1/4.Who also owns NGS and played NGS2.I also played Beyonetta and own GOW123 plus Castlevania LOS.I can honestly say that as a complete game,GOW is the undisputed King of the genre.
None of the other games can compare to GOW in story,depth of gameplay (none of them have grapples moves,LOS copied GOW) or the design of GOW.
They all lack the cinematic engagement that GOW offers.Kratos is easily a more fleshed out character and better character than the likes of the others.
Dante is cheesy and corny.Ryu had no personality and is a generic character.While Bayonetta has too much personality and is way over the top.
You are actually into Krato's world and what motivates him and you know more about his origins than the others.
The enemies are more varied in the way you attack them as well as how they attack you.Each size enemy has a different difficulty.
GOW has also raised the bar and set the standard for scale and boss fights.I really enjoy Castlevania LOS,but it lacks the little touches that GOW has.
So far the story or characters are not really interesting.LOS also just cut and pasted what the GOW franchise has done over the years so it lacks originality (which is why I like it because of the similarities to GOW).
GOW is the only game amongst it's competition that offers traversal game play,puzzles,platforming and great narrative and story telling.The collision detection,physics and hit detection are all superior in GOW.
Without GOW,Konami would not know how to finally make a GOOD 3D Castlevania game.
I grew up playing Castlevania on the NES/SNES,but it has fallen of during the 3D generation.
There is a reason why both Itagaki and Kamiya said that they want to compete with GOW and not the other franchises.Proof that GOW is the best or people who prefer the other games would not acknowledge GOW.
GOW accomplishes what it is suppose to do.Deliver an epic adventure cinematic experience and that completely makes the gamer feel POWERFUL.
All in all though.There really is no need to compare these franchises as they all have a place in gaming and should be enjoyed by action fans around the world.
Actually, all Team Ninja NG's had grapple moves (guillotine throw and izuno drop), and in addition, NGS2 has even more (depending which of the 10 mallet weapons you used and upgraded) and has Obliteration Technique which was not just a showy finisher, but allowed you to quickly kill off delimbed enemies (also affording you moments of invulnerability or "iframes") to unlock more essence for buying items or upgrading weapons (which one had to do with essence in the 360 version) or for absorbing for unleashing Ultimate Techniques which allowed you to perform powerful combos to be used against hordes, tough enemies, and even bosses.
NGS2 was more of a hack'n slash than it's predecessor (NG was more an all around action-adventure), but it definitely has the deepest gameplay of the series and the genre.
Regarding story, NGS2 is definitely the weakest with a story comparable to an 80's cartoon series, but the game is all about action and challenge. As said by Dustinwp, without a story, GOW would've failed. And without the gameplay, NG would've failed. Beat NGS/NGS2 on Master Ninja Mode, and GOW3 on Titan/Chaos mode, then you'll know what i mean.
But to be totally fair, story wasn't so much the highlight of GOW as much as the presentation, music and voice-acting was. Watch the cutscenes over youtube, and you'll see what i mean. I only saw that when i replayed the GOW collection and realized that there wasn't much of a story to it. Kratos is a fairly one-dimensional character (except in Chains of Olympus and for a glimmer in GOW3) out to exact revenge on Olympus, and the story, like in other action adventure games, is there to frame the action and give context to the locales you visit and the boss fights, which had it's fair share of plot-holes (especially in GOWiii). Where it did excel was in the presentation, of which it borderlined Hollywood. In this department GOW was superior to all other games of the genre, and was Sony's Uncharted during the ps2 generaton.
Ninja Gaiden has throwing/slamming attacks NOT grapple moves.I am talking about being able to grab enemies and rip their heads off,rip off their limbs or rip them apart.You also had the grapple finishers for larger enemies like Minotaurs and Centaurs.In addition GOW3 added the ability to use enemies as a battering ram and slam them into the environment.I confess that I did not complete NGS because of the clunky camera and lack of story elements so if it offers more that what I discovered than thank you for the correction.I just could not get into NGS to bother finishing it.
DarthNemesis, welcome to the boards. I like meeting fellow action gamers =)
I have to disagree about your conviction of GoW3 being without equal in depth of play, and seeing that you haven't completed NGS, or NGS2, I won't engage in a discussion over the differences between the two, NG and Gow. Because, quite frankly, you've revealed how in-experienced you are to make qualified judgements 😉
And to make my NG experience known to you. Cumulatively, I've completed the first NG(xbox-PS3) and it's various iterations over 10x. I've completed NGS on Very Hard. I'm currently 1/3(chapter 7) of the way through NGS2 on Master Ninja difficulty. I don't state this to gloat, but to exhort you not to make short sighted conclusions of a game that you simply can not fully understand with your said experience. ANd I fully believe that if you are an accomplished GoW player, and came to know the NG system as well as you do GoW's, you'd agree about the complexity of NG's play.
But aside from that..
I will agree about GoW3's awesome grapple system. It was something I wanted to point out earlier. It is a unique quality to the game that is beyond all of it's competitors.
I also agree that Kratos has a far more interesting back story than most. He is simply a much more realized character than someone like Ryu. And there is no doubt, the presentation of the GoW's have been second to none. It's outstanding head to toe. And Gow3 still stands as one of the most impressive looking games I've ever played in my life.
god of war?
fun to watch, boring to play, if you ask me
To me, the comment from Matthew is borderline flame bait. I like the way Jaffe defused the argument and shut Matthew down. I especially like how he finished with the comment about the sales of the GoW games. Priceless!
Also, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but Beyonetta did not come off has having very deep combat mechanics to me. Then again, I only played the demo and I wasn't terribly impressed so I didn't pick up the full game.
Jaffe went kind of weak sauce though. I mean for him.
off topic:
playing Castlevania Lords of Shadows anyone here suffer a "corrupted save data"? because people are saying that the PS3 version contains this bug.
I have not encountered it. I just started chapter 2.
Nor have i. But i have read about that bug, and it's supposedly affecting a small number of users. Brian Cox said they're working around the clock for a patch.
This is what happens when you make "assumptions".
NG kicks the royal shite out of GOW, not just GOW but any game out there!
it actually requires some skill, proper timing and patience.
got better pacing too, especially in NG2 you do feel like your evolving, you feel like your the character and have spent weeks doing what you do in the game.
you never feel like deja vu, you never feel like havent i done this before?
where in GOW, especially GOW3 your almost saying that every 10 minutes!
they far too much on the anger, far too much on the gore lets rip everything to shreds, and forgot about the level design, the puzzles, the platforming.
the combat is not what makes GOW, its the story which in 3 is almost the worst in the history of games!
and its about the environments, the puzzles, the brutality.
sadly something GOW3 completely forgot!
ninja gaiden always has, and always will not better than GOW, but in a totally different league!
Ninja Gaiden was one of the first games I bought for my PS3 (along with DMC4,Warhawk and some others)…. but I never actually got that into it, because of the initial difficulty on Normal mode.
I finally picked up the GoW Collection. I was playing NG and GoW side by side for a few weeks. Finally I got good enough at NG to progress through the game without constantly dying. But around Chapter 14 or so, I quit caring.
GoW was way more fun than NG, ya, NG is a better battle simulator, but it's story & cutscenes were inferior to GoW.
Still haven't beaten NG yet…. just don't care, will probably sell it for $5 online someday.
Another developer had also railed against "EA Louse too….
Game Developer Attacks 'EA Louse'
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/game-developer-attacks-ea-louse/
FYI you can't just mash buttons on GoW's highest difficulties.
The rest of it mostly comes down to personal taste. I love mythology and knew all the inspirations from the beginning so GoW fits me just fine and the graphics are some real sweet icing.
Still think the ending to the trilogy seemed pretty out of place. The rest of the series is almost non-stop badassery then it turns out like a high-school play, which is to say I think the dialogue could have been better.
That's kind of nitpicking though, my fav part of III was recognizing Kevin Sorbo.
GoW should learn from NG for the combat,
NG? should learn from GoW for the camera work, o snap!
and boobies lol
and here i was enjoying both games for what they do differently.
GOW is better than ANY of those games. I'm sick of people calling it a button masher. Play it on titan or chaos mode and see how far button mashing gets you. Just because someone chooses to spam one kind of combo doesn't mean the game is poorly designed. The series also brought context sensitive kills to the mainstream and STILL does it far better than anyone else. Plus the story on the other three games (all from japanese developers) is so corney and terrible it is embarrassing. No comparison. at all.
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