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Sony: The Latest To Look For Money In Used Games

It seems like every publisher and game maker is looking at ways to turn a profit in the used game market.

We already have EA's Online Pass program, THQ recently announced it would bundle access to online play with new copies of WWE Smackdown vs. Raw 2011 and charge used game players a fee for online admission, and Activision has also expressed a desire to take similar steps. Now, it's Sony's turn. During a recent GamesIndustry.biz interview , SCEE head man Andrew House said the company "supports publisher incentives to monetize the second-hand game market through charging for online play." Said House:

"On the principle of making online portions of the game available or unlocked from the disc-based release for a fee, we're broadly supportive of that. And we're exploring actively the same option for our own content."

Although it has been refuted since, we had heard that Activision would install a subscription service to play their popular Call of Duty franchise online, but House said Sony would have difficulty adopting that method. House makes a point of saying they have a 70% connection rate across consoles concerning the Network, and he attributes that number to the lack of a price barrier. And remember, this only relates to used games, so it won't affect those who typically purchase their games new.

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Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

@ Ben,

Have you ever bought a used book or DVD? Same thing. The authors and screenwriters deserve their royalties, don't they?

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

@Orvisman
Believe it or not, the same laws apply for music and dvd's as well. But it's not as rampant an issue since movies in particular do not profit from DVD sales as much as they do theatre sales. Sure, it's the same issue, but Games suffer more, which is why they are taking things into their own hands. Music did their own version of changes years ago after Napster. Laws don't protect books from resale because it is physical property, not software, and has no licensing. Digital books, however, do and cannot be resold.

@DjEezzy
I find it funny that you don't consider Gamestop the greedy party. I'm all for supporting artistry. And I'm certainly against publishers practices like Activision, and lately, SE as well. In fact, if you've ever read what I written, you would know that.

What I am against, is not supporting the creators of a project. I have a hard time believing your music is worth listening to. My brother in law is a fantastic musician. In fact, he's been nominated for prestigious awards like the Juno. My mother and my sister are professional Soprano's. My sister is soon touring Europe, and my mother is a lead for Opera Nova Scotia. My own band director from the band I used to be apart of is in Havanafax (real music… not whatever a dj does…) and my old piano teacher is one of the most renowned choir directors in the world. In fact, my sister was in her high school days, in his choir touring Germany, Russia, and other European countries between the two.

I know full well what musicians go through. And my brother-in-laws band??? Suffering from second hand sales and illegal file sharing. Funny story from him? They played a show in Ohio. The cd sales in Ohio were a measley barely 130 cds… but why did nearly the entire audience of 5 thousand know every single word?!?! It seems more people know their music than there are even legal copies!!

Similarly, Gamestop is a multi BILLION dollar agency. There are billions of dollars lost by devs and publishers YEARLY to used game sales. You can determine that by looking solely at Gamestop and no other company.

You really think they aren't affected?

Do some research, DjEezzy. You sound like a freaking moron calling me out with nothing but opinion. On many issues, we even agree, but you can't see past the FACTS I bring to the table because you're concerned with a quick buck and your own interpretation of your own self-efficacy.

So do I side with EA and SONY et al? On some issues, no. I don't like Activision's practices. Or SE. And much of what EA does makes me upset. But when it comes to return, yes… I actually believe that the person that creates something deserves to make money from it.. not someone else.

How fair would it be for me to sell your music for you and keep every penny? I mean, come on… you're basically telling me, that once you become a millionaire music producer, you no longer deserve to make money from what got you money in the first place? Get real, man.

Gamestop is a much bigger corporation than any publisher out there… and they make billions per year on used game sales…

let me translate for you, djezzy…

THAT'S (to be exact) $1.3billion dollars in the last QUARTER year that gamestop has made on used sales…

1.3 billion!!! That's again… 1.3billion dollars NOT going back into the gaming industry. It's lost money. Filled the pockets of gamestop to expand and buy their CEO's top quality time shares in the dominican.

If you're thankful for that 1.3 billion dollars lost, feel free to go up to guys like Jaffe and thank them for their hard work.

Get a grip people.


Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/26/2010 10:38:00 AM

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

So, DjEezzy… Lets hear a good opinion.

Why, in your opinion, SHOULDN'T Sony and their publisher/devs profit from the games they make?

Also, where can I find your stuff for download? I want to download it illegally and distribute it.

ABUrabad
ABUrabad
14 years ago

some people in some areas are not being able to buy new games at all , this is one of the reasons why a lot of people in developing countries are buying them over the web
Sony and other game developers should take that in consideration ,buying used games will encourage the old game owner how bought it new will invest the money back to buy a new game and this will push the new game cycle foreword
Sony could take in consideration the use of the IP address of the PS3 owner to determined his location to let him to play online for free or not when using a second hand game
in other hand i buy a lot of games from eBay as used the owner of a used game who is welling to sell it over there may now be convinced that his game is worthing now much less because of some contents are not available by then the new owner of the used game when he buy that game for a cheaper price he could invest some money for online gaming when the ask to new user code

ABUrabad
ABUrabad
14 years ago

and there is another point I didn't mention by this greedy way in treating the subject of used games sales will encourage the piracy of game consoles since a lot of users didn't crack their systems yet because of the online gaming this will change when they consider asking gamers to buy for online gaming on used games

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

Yup, and as it looks, those folks in developing countries will have to take into consideration they might need to pay an access fee for online use.

tes37
tes37
14 years ago

People like me could one day benefit from the death of used game sales. I might could buy brand new games for $50 again instead of $60, or free dlc if people would support the developers.

I buy my games new, so it only makes sense for me to not be offended with Sony wanting to get paid.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

Game prices didn't go up because of used games. They went up because they have bigger production costs.

Also getting free DLC for supporting the developers sure didn't work when Activision/Infinty Ward made over $500 million dollars for MW2. The least they could have done was give everybody the rehashed maps from MW1 for free as thanks for making them rich and having the biggest selling game ever.

tes37
tes37
14 years ago

No. But game prices won't come down because of them either.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

OK how about the games that sell millions. Halo, Madden, CoD, Gran Turismo, GTA, etc. those are all guaranteed to make lots and lots of money but they are still $60. Used game sales don't seem to hurt those titles. Maybe if the big titles would come out cheaper people might have some extra money for a not so big title.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

@Daze,

Well, unless I miss my guess games that sell well on the pS3 usually come back for a re-release as a greatest hits game at half the original price. It sure seems that selling well does in fact reduce prices, you simply need to be patient.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

@Highlander: You are correct there but on the other hand those games were going to go down in price anyways. Specially if they don't sell well. Usually greatest hits are put out after the game has been out a year or more.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

Man I can't believe I read through all these comments. There is some good stuff in here. One of the best things I saw, can't remember who wrote it, was to cut back on how many games you buy. I had to do that because there is just to much out there.

I have and still do buy used games sometimes but most of the time is when I get a great deal on it. Like when I saved 35% on FFXIII used when the game first came out. Paying $38 was a lot better than $65. Don't get me wrong I still buy most of my games new.

Other options for people that don't have much money is game trading websites. I use one and get great value for my finished games. I usually get games I would have never bought in the first place.

Ya the developers are missing out on some sales but it's not enough to hurt them. How come used games sales were never a problem years ago. When I worked at EB games 11 years ago I never heard or read anything about used games hurting the business.

People just aren't buying games like they use to. Look how slow this generation has been on systems selling. Hell the PS3 has been out 4 years and it's just starting really selling in the last year. The country is in a recession with thousands of people out of jobs. If people aren't working they're not spending. Not everybody makes big bucks and can just buy every game. When a game comes out and word gets out that it sucks nobody is going to buy it.

I love supporting the game industry but developers need start getting better on the quality checks. I bought Madden 11, 1st Madden for me in 6 years, and the damn online is screwed up. Can't get into any team play games with pisses me off. Imagine if I would have rented this and couldn't test this out because I had to buy an online pass. So I buy it and then find out the one game mode I want to play doesn't work right. So know I'm not sure if I will buy anymore Maddens again.

Well thanks for listening to me rant.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

With respect, 11 years ago, used game sales were not nearly such big business as they are now.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

@Highlander: You gotta think though Gamestop really started picking used sales when the recession hit. People had more money back in the days to. Plus there wasn't 15 games coming out a month.

People are doing whatever they can nowadays to play games. If they have to buy used games so be it. Hell maybe if the game gets a sequel they'll buy that one new.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

I don't have to think anything of the sort. I've watched the size of the displays of the Gamestops near me over the last 5-10 years and in the last 5 years or so, the used bin has grown to the point where more retail space is given over to used games than to new games.

I have no doubt that the money pressure of the recession has made saving $$ more attractive to people but the sheer size of the used game market, especially that handled by brokers like GameStop has been apparent since before the recession hit. You can't blame the recession for the impact of used games.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

I'm not blaming the sale of used games on the recession. I'm saying more and more people are buying them now because it's cheaper plus if you don't like it you can return it for a full refund within 7 days. You can't do that with real games.

Think about it, you spend $60 on a game and it ends up being utter crap. So now the devs just screwed you. So the only thing you can do is either keep it and never played it again, waste of money, or trade it in and get at least something back.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

In regards to renting, Daze, two things. Rental agencies like Blockbuster, have separate user agreements that allow them to rent games and share profit with devs. Also, I'm not sure if there would be a temp pass for rentals, but even if there wasn't you would still have full access to everything on that disc. Just not anything extra like online. (which could suck, I know)

ABUrabad
ABUrabad
14 years ago

how mush would coast an online pass for games in general if i needed to buy one?


Last edited by ABUrabad on 8/25/2010 5:40:30 PM

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

Sounds like $10 or something like that.

Sogi_Otsa
Sogi_Otsa
14 years ago

you buy something, sell it for a cheap price, the buyer enjoys it. someone buys something sells it to you. wouldn't you like to just enjoy it? because you shouldn't have to double pay for something that was already paid. if a game is out of print and the company stopped selling it and you buy it used, why should you have to pay the people that don't even offer it on their site? buy the working game used, because you can't buy it new, or even if you don't have enough to get it new, and enjoy the game.
while were looking at it, if that's the case why is it you can use copyrighted images/characters and not have to pay the company for using it.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

You can use them because their copyrights only pertain to using them for personal gain and are removed from licensing use. Software has licensing agreements that restrict overall use. Images and characters, like in a play, can be used so long as it is not for gain.

Technically speaking (as a theatre major) even in theatre, you need a license to portray particular characters that someone still owns. Plays like Shakesphere are fair game because they are public domain. Most modern plays that are still owned by the playwright or family need to be paid a premium for their use.

DeathOfChaos
DeathOfChaos
14 years ago

Underdog, you conveniently call yourself a lot of things that somehow tries to make you sound like a reliable source, lol. Keep talking, man.

Shadow_Striker
Shadow_Striker
14 years ago

I think that this approach is the wrong one to make. If they want to get more money then they should be working with places like gamestop and gamefly or any other retailer who is willing to work with them. Heck, I'm sure that even Sony could set up a rental/used game service where they get a cut and the dev and pub would get a cut too. Personally I feel that places like gamestop should give a small percentage of money from the used product for up to 2 years after date of release. Gamestop will still make a boatload of money and devs/pubs will get compensation.

I fear what is going to happen if they go down this road is that you will get a whole bunch of angry people(regardless if it is justifiable or not)and they will seriously look for/work towards an illegal solution and we are going to be in a worse situation they we already are in.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

The legalities of copyright wouldn't weigh in on this situation. But you're right it would be nice to have some sort of deal between gamestop and devs, but we all know Gamestop won't do that since they aren't required to stop. (afterall, they aren't doing anything that could get them sued since they on paper only sell the disks)

Simcoe
Simcoe
14 years ago

Seems to me many people are arguing that it's their right to play online because the package says so. Maybe Sony, EA, MS, Activision et al., just need to change their packaging.

LittleBigMidget
LittleBigMidget
14 years ago

If Sony does this, I'm going to be really upset and just might stop buying their games. I play my games on more than one account, and the "Pass" is ACCOUNT LOCKED. It'd be a pretty stupid move for Sony.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

No, games would be assigned to a system, and not an account. And for those that own multiple systems, you get to activate it on 5 systems. (But it would be tied to your main account, so don't sell the remaining activations to people because they could potentially steal your info.)

THEVERDIN
THEVERDIN
14 years ago

@Highlander
Heres the deal, I sold a pen I made to guy at work for $50 2 days later he asked if he could get another. I asked how many pens can you use at one time. He said he sold the pen he bought for $60, now I didn't ask him for a percentage. It was my time and my design and I also made my money plus he came back for more product. It's the same with a used game or rental, if you like it more than likely next time the dev makes a gameyou'll buy the game at full price.


Last edited by THEVERDIN on 8/25/2010 6:25:24 PM

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

A pen is a physical item, not a virtual one. Copyrights material or software is not a physical product. Your analogy simply doesn't cover this because you're effectively comparing apples and oranges.


Last edited by TheHighlander on 8/25/2010 11:03:12 PM

Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

The game disks I hold in my hand seem pretty physical to me or am I imagining they have a physical form?

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

Orvisman, don't be dumb. Go read about licensing software laws. It's like you're trying to be oblivious just to be annoying.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

For the record, I'm not saying you're dumb. I know you aren't dumb at all. Last time I used a phrase I use with my friends, I really offended someone. lol.

What I mean is, don't be silly. Like, I'm calling you out for intentionally stating what isn't true. Know what I'm getting at?

THEVERDIN
THEVERDIN
14 years ago

Let's do this activation code thing. You buy a new game, put the disk in get to the final level a message appears "Please login into PSN for final DLC level cost $19.99". This is the road you're traveling down.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

Yeah, and what about the rest of what is on the game disc? You're not going to play that? You're only renting it to play the DLC? Come on, that's simply unreasonable.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

@Highlander: He is talking about the devs starting to charge people for the last level in the game so you can beat it. This could happen if companies really wanted people to buy their games new. It would be a load of BS but who knows exactly how far they will go to stop used game sales.

It would be like if you were playing Mario and the only way for you to fight Bowser and get the ending was to buy the DLC or have the One Time use code.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

You're absolutely right Daze, my apologies to Techy. I can only apologize for not reading properly and replying before I did so.

DazeOfWar
DazeOfWar
14 years ago

Bout time you knew what wass right Highlander. Lol. Really though I have no problems with ya Highlander. I find a lot of your comments since I've been coming to the site well worth reading. You'll always get my respect.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

@Daze,

That's what it's all about, we all have opinions and views, which we're entitled to. We're all entitled to thing each other is wrong. If we all thought the same thing and the same way, it would be a very boring world. Plus we'd never have anything to talk about. Besides, if I agreed with my friends about everything I would have nothing to kid them about over a drink.

Cheers!

A2K78
A2K78
14 years ago

"With respect, 11 years ago, used game sales were not nearly such big business as they are now."

Another flawed logic of TheHighlander. Anyhow used games have always been big business, why do you think there is so many people on craiglist or ebay selling games Panzer Dragoon Saga or Gaurdian Heros for insane prices?

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

Excuse me? Flawed logic?

*11* years ago. 1999. Ebay was an infant compared to today, Craig's list was similarly small.

"why do you think there is so many people on craiglist or ebay selling games Panzer Dragoon Saga or Gaurdian Heros for insane prices?"

Why do I think there are so many people selling vintage games on Ebay and Craig's list now? because those games are old, and rare, and valuable. That is *now*, not 11 years ago.

BikerSaint
BikerSaint
14 years ago

On a related note, THQ is weighing in on the used buyers too…

THQ Does Not Care About Pre-Owned Buyers

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/thq-does-not-care-about-pre-owned-buyers/

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

This is another symptom of how problematic the used game trade has become. Sides are polarizing and the developers are clearly stating that they are not happy with the situation.

Imagi
Imagi
14 years ago

I would rather they work out a way to tax the retailer's that make such a profit on the second hand games market.

It would piss me off to spend $15 to access the online component of a game to find out their are no other players online, as I bet no refund would be given!

Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

@Highlander,

When this discussion comes up (and it does over and over again), you trot out the software licensing argument but never realistically address the fact that if these software licenses were truly enforceable, why don't the game publishers and developers band together and file a class action suit and litigate GameStop out of existence? Therefore, setting a precedent they can use to stop Amazon, eBay, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Toys 'R' Us, and the rest from selling used games.

Simple, because those software licensing agreements you so ardently support aren't worth the paper they are printed on; and the developers and publishers know this. Because if they were enforceable, you can bet Activision, EA, M$ft, Sony, and Nintendo would have pursued this already.

And don't say these companies do not try to litigate GameStop out of existence because they need GameStop to sell their new consoles and games. They don't, especially with all the viable retail channels and big-box retailers available to them.

And don't claim what GameStop is doing isn't illegal because they can legally sell the physical media. If licensing agreements were truly enforceable, what GameStop is doing is aiding and abetting in the facilitation of a crime because when we buy used games it is implied that we are buying them to play them, therefore violating the EULA. That is something game publishers could sue over in a civil court in a class action suit.

Then again, most of what you and others argue here is more moral and not legal.

Therefore, the other thing you never seem to address is that you obviously feel the game developers and publishers should receive some monetary compensation for their hard work and that the sale of used games deprives them of that money. I agree. But you do not seem to hold musicians, authors, comic book writers/illustrators, or all those people involved in making movies in the same regard. If you do, however, you never address how those creators deserve to be rewarded for their hard work too.

While you defend the rights of game developers and publishers to monetize their hard work, you don't seem to hold these creators in the same regard because when it is pointed out that no one seems to make such a big deal about the sale of used DVDs, CDs, books, or comic books you don't offer up a solid defense of why game makers deserve to be rewarded by the sale of their new games and these other creators don't deserve their royalties.

All we get is that it isn't the same thing. That is not a staunch defense.

Do the authors, musicians, comic book creators, and moviemakers not deserve the royalties for their hard work? Shouldn't the consumer of these products only buy their entertainment new and not used? None of these industries, however, have introduced systems that penalize used purchasers for buying second-hand merchandise by trying to sell them a code. Are any of these other industries packing in codes with the sale of new CDs or DVDs or books that you need to enter to access the content you just purchased so that when someone buys the same DVD, CD, or book used they will need to buy a new entitlement code? No.

And yes, I agree with you that the way things are going it won't be long before video game companies are packing in entitlement codes with new games that you will have to enter to access even the single-player content. If you buy the game used, GameStop or PSN or XBLA will sell you a new entitlement code for, say, $5. I was talking to someone last week about that same thing.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
14 years ago

I think you'll find that Underdog did a stellar job of addressing precisely this point, so why should I repeat his words when they are already out there?

If you want to widen this to other forms of copyrighted work, that's fine with me, but off topic here. If you've read my posts in this article and others, you should already know how I feel about copyright infringement in general and the rights of content creators. I fully support the rights of content creators to be paid for their work, and not cheated.

I am very consistent in my stance on this issue with regard to *all* copyright material, not just games. That's one of the things that makes me so 'popular' among a certain group of PSXers…LOL!

I also have to add – as I have said many times in comments about this type of issue – technology has advanced to the point where mass infringement of copyright is trivially easy. That was not the case 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, and certainly not before that. Copyright exists to protect the creators of works and ensure they are rewarded for their creativity. The fact is that the laws have not kept pace with the technology, and the technology has advanced in it's ability to facilitate copyright infringement in ways that could not even have been dreamed about 30-40 years ago.

As an example, look at Books. Books biggest threat before photo-copiers was that someone would make an unauthorized re-print. But that requires printing presses and a distribution network, and was definitely something that copyright law could be used to prevent. Then the photocopier came along and the print media was in a lot of trouble. But along came 'fair use' that says you can copy small excerpts from a work, but not the whole work. If you go to most copy stores like Kinko's they will not allow you to photocopy an entire book. This is because of copyright law. Now along comes the digital age. a gook can be scanned to digital form, or even originally sold in digital form. Now it's possible to break the copyright on the entire book with the click of a mouse. want to be on how happy authors are now? But the law hasn't caught up. So we are left with proprietary copy protection schemes that are broken by hackers mere moments after they surface.

The same is true for VHS, CD, DVD and BluRay. They were all difficult to copy originally, and there are no businesses that allow you to make copies of these things. but as technology advanced we gained the ability to copy tapes, rips CDs, rips DVDs and even Bluray now. Sure it's more expensive to rip and reburn a BluRay right now, but like with CD and DVD, that price comes down. The next step is the digital distribution of content. But the thing is that the law has not kept pace with any of this. The law is an ass when it comes to the majority of this because it simply wasn't framed in a way that makes it enforceable when mass infringement is trivially easy.

I think that makes it a moral issue because we all know what is right and wrong. Others say that because it's so easy and everyone can do it, it shouldn't be against the law. Then they proceed to pick holes in the current laws governing copyright. Just as you have. The fact is that the basic law does cover this, but it has absolutely no way to be enforced in a real manner given the technology and mass infringement we have today. Do we criminalize everyone that's ever downloaded via P2P or torrent? Copyright law is a civil, not criminal law. so every infringement is a separate civil offense that has to be taken to court. How likely is that to happen? The RIAA (quite insanely) tried it, but it simply did not work. You can't sue your customers on your way to success.

It's a moral issue, precisely because the law is incompetent.


Last edited by TheHighlander on 8/26/2010 10:41:21 AM

Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

I address Underdog's points about EULAs and GameStop, and I don't full buy them.

Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

@Highlander,

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that you are writing about the illegal copying of books and pirating of DVDs and CDs not the legal reselling of said goods.

So, you still haven't addressed my points about how the creators of these products are also missing royalties based on the legal resale of their goods. Shouldn't they, too, be able to monetize the resale of their hard work?

You know most authors and musicians don't make a lot of money from royalties, right? So, if you borrow a book or CD from a friend, which I'm sure you have, those artists aren't being compensated for their hard work. The same goes for movie and TV DVDs because the writers on those products also miss royalties from reselling or sharing.

Underdog15
Underdog15
14 years ago

Indeed, Orvisman. The law is a very poor one in terms of protecting copyright licensing agreements. It needs reform, because it's behind the times by like 20-30 years. So it's easy to understand why people feel resale is acceptable. It has become the norm, and aside from personal moral beliefs, it's not wrong.

Books aren't protected properly at all, (especially now that they can be bought digitally!), dvd's, games, and music are all… well… Quote-Unquote "protected". But there's NO way that can be enforced. In the end, the whole thing is silly, and it comes down to what your beliefs are surrounding right and wrong. Are you a type 1, type 2, or type 3 moral personality? Most people are type 2, according to psychological study. So most people will be all for second-hand purchases despite moral objectivity.

Orvisman
Orvisman
14 years ago

Sony was the first to do this with Socom Fireteam Bravo 3.