Ben-DutkaIt isn't yet another movie-maker making statements he isn't qualified to make . It's the outright dismissal and obvious contempt these guys have for our industry.
And boy , considering the state of films right now, that takes a ton of gall. So much, in fact, that it borders on adolescent whining and ranting; it's reminiscent of established trend-setters sitting in the back seat and screaming at the driver that he doesn't know where he's going. Every time I turn around, there's another director, producer or even actor slinging a few barbs in our direction. It's often quite subtle and sometimes, I even believe they don't mean to be insulting. It's just a common, widespread belief in Hollywood that gaming still isn't a viable, legitimate form of entertainment and even if they admit that much, it can't be as viable or legitimate as movies. Now, it'd be one thing if they were fully checked out on the subject; if they had played the most advanced, progressive, revolutionary experiences this industry currently has to offer. But as we all know, that's never the case.
Maybe they're upset that the two vying industries are headed in opposite directions. Gaming keeps moving forward and continues to break new ground while movies have only gone backwards in terms of quality and intelligence. How long can you sit on your lofty pedestal and cast aspersions on all the lowly peons when your #1 product for a good long time is called "Hot Tub Time Machine?" Seriously, what part of your egotistical little brain tells you nobody will notice? Perhaps it's the same part of the brain that, like a pouting child, says that if you turn a blind eye to the facts, you'll still be right. It really is like a temper tantrum isn't it? Every time I see another movie guy pissing on games, all I can think of is a two-year old holding hands over ears, shaking his head back and forth, squeezing his eyes shut, and going, "no, no, no, no, no, no!"
Yeah, keep doing that. We've got a whole lot of very talented people working on our sh**, Hollywood. In fact, I'm willing to bet you're losing a lot of talent to our industry because you insist on turning out trash, and we can actually use fresh creativity, artistry, choreography, direction, etc. I see about one new movie a year and I don't feel as if I'm missing out on a damn thing (maybe it's because I read too much). See, you've already lost people like me who will read "War and Peace" one hour and play Heavy Rain the next. You can continue to cater to the mind-numbingly brain-dead masses all you wish; there's certainly a lot of money in that "noble" endeavor. But for the love of God, just stop making fools of yourselves. It's not even annoying, anymore…it's just plain sad.
Saying I'm "rife with ignorance" is hardly a moderate tone. And if I say multiple times in the article that I constantly hear crap from multiple Hollywood members, maybe it isn't a good idea to base your entire complaint around the incorrect belief that I'm referring to one person's comments.
I drew a distinction with that 'rife with ignorance' sentence, in which I referred to the line, not you.
If this is an opinion piece, then you are free to write your opinion… just don't be surprised when it reads as a bit hypocritical to some.
If this is a journalistic piece, then you should also be looking for examples of when hollywood types praise games.
http://m.gamepro.com/articles/ps3/features/hollywood-actors-describe-voice-acting-in-games/213429/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/hollywood-director-praises-heavy-rain
Just a thought.
Of course it's an editorial. It's not about comparing what this person said to what that person said. It's the general feel I continually get from the industry; a feel everyone other than you seems to understand and recognize.
Movies are in my face all the time. They can't not be if you're alive on this planet. Games are hardly in the faces of movie people all the time; they have no idea what's out there, while it's real hard for me NOT to know.
Can you be done now?
To be fair Hawkeye, the piece is clearly an opinion editorial. Also you say that not every movie can be Casablanca, and not every game can be Uncharted. Clearly not. But Casablanca is nearly 60 years old, and Uncharted 2 is just about a year old. Are you really saying that Hollywood hasn't matched the human drama in Casablanca in the last 60 years?
Obviously not. but I do feel Ben's opinion is largely valid. Many of Hollywood's greatest film makers are ignorant when it comes to games, this can be seen both in the way that video gamers and games themselves are depicted and used by movies, as well as the way in which several high profile directors have consciously tried to (and failed to) tap into the gamer audience.
Making a game is a different process to making a movie. A movie is a self contained two hour product that tells a story from start to finish. It has to be paced differently, and action movies in particular have to be very quick in establishing characters, back stories and motivations. To say that because it's a movie it is deeper than a game ignores the fact that a game can develop a character over a duration 5-10 times that of a movie.
Not only that, but many games are open ended, and have non-linear story and character arcs within the main narrative. Movies have to be (by their nature) a single linear narrative. Even a movie like Pulp fiction which skips back and forth along a timeline with multiple character story threads ultimately uses that technique to tell a story that is linear and follows from one even to the next.
What I don't understand is why you attack Ben so virulently. Ben has never said movies can't do human drama, but he's perfectly correct to point to main stream entertainment movies like Hot Tub Time machine and point out that they don't do much to show human drama. The majority of movies today are about the spectacle of the action or effects, or about big laughs and smaller giggles. They're not typically about the human condition, they're not typically full of pathos or character driven drama. I mean come on, the fashion for torture porn did nothing to illuminate the human condition, did it? Do the Twilight movies really do anything other than paint a ludicrous picture of confused youths trying to avoid dealing with issues told through the premise of vampiric or lycanthrpic transformation which is clearly intended to parallel the transformation from youth to adult, from innocence to maturity? And yet does it in such a trivial, 'fluff' driven manner?
Movies like Casablanca are genius, and stand the test of time, but a lot of those movies were not made with the though of being huge cinematic milestones. they are a product of their time. A time when drama mattered more than action or effects or nudity, or violence. A time when dialog, story, and acting mattered more than stunts and shouting swear words.
Well, whatever, It seems like you're trying to defend Hollywood as if Ben said the logical equivalent of games good, hollywood evil. He didn't say that, and no amount of argument from you will make his words take on that meaning.
It is the trend that has us on the defensive, and some on the offensive. "Games are not art.", "Games cannot portray drama." These statements are false. If the individuals making the statements based them on opinion then we would have no argument. But the context used does not indicate it as such. We obviously Love gaming. Any attack against our preferred form of entertainment will cause an alarm.
Relax.. Its not that serious. In 5 years we will look back at all this and laugh.
Ben's doing exactly what this guy did though, Ben pointed out Hot Tub Time Machine as the number 1 product.
Well I'm sure this guy considers COD the number 1 product. When we all know that Uncharted, MGS, Heavy Rain etc. were all some of the most emotionally enticing pieces of entertainment we ever came across.
There are definitely better products out there than Hot Tub Time Machine, but I think it's fair to say that COD online caters to the "brain-dead masses" (as Ben puts it) just as much as any movie out there.
And hey, maybe Mike Newell knew about all the other games, and i guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whatever.
Hello. My name is Chris. I have a degree in Theatre Arts, and I endorse Ben's article.
@tommccrossin
Yes, but, Ben's point…. *sigh*
is that Mr. Newell basing a large part of his opinion on a game like CoD is the same as us basing our opinion of movies on Hot Tub Time Machine.
It's not about how Hot Tub Time Machine is the best movies have to offer… it clearly isn't.
Something you're forgetting, Tom, and it's crucial: a product like Hot Tub Time Machine would NEVER BE #1 in the gaming industry. Crap doesn't sit atop the charts. It never has. This industry rewards quality.
And because only stupid stuff seems to sell in Hollywood, they must continue to make their millions so they have to keep producing stupidity. I'm not necessarily condemning them for that, either.
Haha that point's true enough, i agree.
Ben, blaming Hollywood for the success of movies like Hot Tub Time Machine is placing the blame on the wrong people. Yes Hollywood made the movie, but the masses watched it and told their friends to go see it. And spending $12 on a movie ticket and a night out is a different situation than spending $65+ on a game (not to mention the initial cost of the gaming system), so people are more apt to throw their money away on a crap movie than a crap game.
While I admit that there are a lot of bad movies made, there are a lot of bad games made too – Naughty Bear for example – one that had lots of hype and no substance.
One could argue that while the production quality may be better in a game like GTA, the purpose is mindless entertainment – the same as Hot Tub Time Machine, and while GTA lasts 5 times as long, it also costs 5 times as much. I call that a wash.
You are in a position where you, for lack of a better term, are required to look at / play a number of new gaming titles and will occasionally find a diamond in the rough, so to speak. Only seeing one new movie a year severely limits your experience with new films, making it difficult for you to accurately judge, in my opinion the quality that is out there.
So, ripping on Hollywood people for putting down the gaming industry without knowing what's there, is different from ripping Hollywood without watching movies how?
Only question I have is are you the pot or the kettle?
@Jeej
Again… it's about how Mr. Newell looks at a game like CoD and basis his opinion of games on that just the same is if we look at Hot Tub Time Machine and base our opinion of movies on that…
It's not a wash, because the issue isn't about how much money is spent on what movie. I don't like the GTA series, but it takes more than 5 hours, I'm sure as most games do.
Now, as for me, I feel I do have the expertise to say that video games do indeed have dramatic elements. I spent 4 years obtaining a degree in theatre. I know dramatic art when I see it. And I'm telling you… Ben makes some extremely valid points.
I also recognize that Hot Tub Time Machine is crap. It isn't even that funny. Not to me, anyways. I also recognize that MW2, a top selling game, has a tremendous amount of flaws. However, you can't judge an entire stream of entertainment by those titles. That's Ben's point. How can I make this clear….
HE NEVER SAID MOVIES ARE SOMEHOW NOT A RELEVANT WORK OF ART OR DRAMA!
He is merely addressing the fact that Mr. Newell is uneducated. And yes… Ben not seeing more than 1 new movie a year does limit his opinion of movies… but that's his point! Ben doesn't discredit movies just because he doesn't see many movies. He fully understands there are amazing works of drama and art in movies. But it's not his entertainment of choice. However, Mr. Newell is doing just that.
And THAT, my friend, is the point of the article should you read it thoroughly.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 7/30/2010 3:34:32 PM
Gotta love how people either don't read the article or don't understand the point of the article.
Video games = growth
Movies = decline
Furthermore, the "game's can't produce human emotions" statement is the other part.
Hollywood is whining, gaming is not.
PS: Some of you need to learn how to read an article. It's easy, consider going back to school or something.
Jeej: I know what Hollywood produces. As I said, it's in my face every day on TV. And if you really think I'm the only one who feels continually insulted by Hollywood products, you're wrong.
There's also a hell of a lot more than one "diamond in the rough" in gaming. You can call it what you want and you can defend what you wish; Hollywood is in no position to bash games, which many movie people do on a frequent basis. If you feel like proving that incorrect somehow, rather than harping on Hollywood's quality as if that was REALLY my point, be my guest.
Anyone notice how those who cause problems or who seek to act superior by proving everyone wrong just recently signed up to do so…?
Jeej post count: 1.
…yeah. And it's REALLY funny when they never read a word of the article, because that isn't required in certain hellhole forums.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 7/30/2010 8:42:03 PM
.. i didn't get the memo movies were on the decline anyway. Can anyone give me something other than personal opinion on this. Like i don't know, fact.
Christ. Try watching the classics and watching what we have now.
Personal Opinion?
No, it's not. Fact.
Tomm… are you really going to try to argue otherwise? That's a tough undertaking. Instead of posting lame 2 word posts in the form of an interrogative, why don't you sum up your thoughts in full sentences so we have something to talk about as opposed to being on the defense from uninformed attacks?
Ben: I’m sorry that new readers who feel compelled to participate are such a burden to you and the site – increasing readership must be a real pain. And while I may be a new reader with only one previous post, that does not mean I don’t intend to contribute further in the future. And I did read the article. Three times in fact. And the one you referenced.
The FACT is that while Hollywood may not be producing the number of human drama movies that it used to (at least on a percentage basis), the vast majority of games do not even attempt to do it. As a matter of fact, while I have not read every review you have done in the last 3 months, I have read most, and none of the reviews have mentioned the human element. And while Mike Newell may not be known for movies thick with the “human dramaâ€, the games he is referencing really don’t even attempt to do it.
Games are (mostly) measured using different metrics than movies – playability, graphics, sound, features (especially in the ever growing number of sequels / follow-ups), whereas some people expect every movie to have human drama and a great script, including flawless dialogue. If the same metrics are used, the classics suck and while Hot Tub Time Machine would not be a great one, it would still rank higher than Casablanca and Both Hulk movies would have been awesome, instead virtually everyone in the world will tell you that Casablanca is one of the greatest movies ever and the other three are mindless drivel. Even those that enjoyed them will admit they are mindless.
And seeing previews and clips on TV is not the same as seeing the entire movie – that would be like comparing playing a game to seeing an ad for it or seeing the beta. There have been a number of movies with garbage previews that turned out to be good movies and ones with previews that made the movie seem way better than it was, just as there are Betas that suck and the game turns out to be good, or initial looks that make a game appear to be ground breaking and they bomb.
My point however was not about any of this, and if that was unclear, than I apologise. My point was more that while Hollywood may have no right to bash the gaming industry (a point I agree with by the way), those in the gaming industry that are not well versed in movies should not bash Hollywood. Your main point is valid, but starting in the third paragraph you start to malign Hollywood for a movie that was meant to be mindless, similar to a game like Joe Danger (a game you gave a 9.2 overall rating) and while Hot Tub Time Machine may not be the best ever made, it obviously was well received by the public. Why can a mindless game be worth getting, but a mindless movie can’t be worth seeing?
That was what I was getting at – mindless is mindless and both industries do a lot of it. The public decides what it wants and both industries then make more of what works. They’d be foolish not to. So while movie execs shouldn’t be bashing gaming without playing games first, gamers should bash movies for doing something that games frequently do, especially when they don’t watch the movies to begin with.
@Underdog15
The last 1/2 of the article is about how Hot Tub Time Machine was a number one movie and the movie industry is crap. Maybe not the main point of the article, but it gets as much space as the rest. To quote the article (that apparently you didn’t read thoroughly):
“In fact, I'm willing to bet you're losing a lot of talent to our industry because you insist on turning out trash, and we can actually use fresh creativity, artistry, choreography, direction, etc.â€
That, to me, is discrediting movies and the movie industry …
Really though, this is a bit over-exaggerated. I understand the guy's argument, I don't agree with it. But this article goes on a rant about all of "Hollywood". I'm sure "Hollywood" wouldn't want to be represented by Mike Newell anyway. Ask one of it's most prominent and respected actors, Liam Neeson who did Fallout
lol just some fun here…
"Over-exaggerated" is a little reduntantly reduntant. ^.^
😛
"I'm sure "Hollywood" wouldn't want to be represented by Mike Newell anyway."
You work at Hollywood, right?
was that supposed to be funny.
I dunno. Is your avatar supposed to be funny? because…..
Last edited by Underdog15 on 7/31/2010 9:22:38 PM
Bah there will always be retards in society. And now we know even a retard can make a movie.
Seriously though I bet not all people in Hollywood think the same just like I bet some gamers don't consider movies as entertainment anymore lol. Weirdos on both sides if you ask me.
I say make me dictator and i'll chop some heads 😀 No more ranting or b*ll*hi**ing in my country! Mu u hahaha. But yeah the louder they bark the weaker they are ( or so some dood said to me ) So let him bark and tremble till he drowns in his own pee 😀 screw the Hollywood haters!
You'd wipe out 99% of the West's population
I rarely watch movies now days,the only movies am looking forward to see is Transformers 3 and Indiana Jones 5
Red Dead Redemption is better than anything Hollywood has put in the past twenty years so listening to their ranting isn't really necessary.
Nobody thinks about the theatre. man the west end is brilliant, 39 Steps was sooo funny.
Why is everyone comparing MW2 to Hot tub time machine??
Its so not the same kettle of fish!! 🙁
I reckon it deserves to be the highest grossing ever!! Whereas hot tub time machine is not highest grossing, it was just number 1 for a while. But it is pretty funny!! lol.
P.s Ben i did read article…. Blinder 🙂
Just trying to stop the CoD hatred 🙂 lol.