Ben-DutkaWe've all addressed the subject – in one form or another – when Final Fantasy XIII launched – but I don't think it really hit home until I wrote that article about Square-Enix's new Extreme Edges label. Plus, it's something that Arnold and I spoke briefly about on IM last night.
Comparing the old Squaresoft to the new Square-Enix is a long, exhausting process that is often fraught with personal bias and the decision to ignore changing market trends. We are gamers and journalists; we are not big business executives and the last time I checked, a company as large as Square-Enix most likely has some very talented and capable individuals in its employ. They don't make decisions at random. They don't go out of their way to annoy people. To believe any of that is just the bitterness talking, and we have to concede that Square-Enix's business practices are, for the most part, beyond our inexperienced critique. Therefore, we can only view this from a fan standpoint, right? But even when we do that, we seem to come to the same conclusion: that Square-Enix has somehow managed to alienate many of its long-time hardcore fans.
Yes, many Japanese companies have desperately been trying to expand westward and appeal to North American and European audiences; hence, the significant change in gameplay and style in certain big-name titles (like FFXIII). But at what point did those who made so many Squaresoft gems successes in all parts of the world stop playing games? At what point did all their preferences and opinions shift gears? It'd be one thing if Square-Enix – and other Japanese designers – continued to make games in the style their fans recognize and love, along with some new projects. But it almost seems as if they've entirely abandoned any and all "old" formulas and rushed into the more-action, less-strategy realm. I suppose, as a Western gamer, I should take offense to this, as it essentially insinuates that we're just plain…dumber. If you look at Square-Enix's adjustments, you will see how Japan views this audience: as a group dominated by action and FPS fans who can't sit still for two and a half seconds.
But again, this would almost be understandable if they had simply branched out. But they didn't branch out. They overhauled their entire approach. The only conclusion one can reach is that they honestly do believe that the millions of gamers who rewarded them for their JRPGs in the PlayStation era really want something "new and improved." Their idea is that nobody wants turn-based. Nobody wants traditional. Nobody wants anything they've ever seen before because we Westerners are just too impatient. But is this right? Do the sales reflect this belief? I'm not sure they do…and while I'm also not sure there are enough of us left to warrant something like a Final Fantasy VII remake, I refuse to believe we've all changed. But then again, maybe they don't care. Maybe they're going after a different demographic…but isn't that still turning your back on those who loved you to pieces at one point?
I just don't know. I know we can't get Squaresoft back. I know few want turn-based or other traditional RPG themes to return. But I wonder how "few" there really are, that's all.
@jawkneee
Was there are doubt?
i havent bought an enix game in a long time. i'll prob end up renting FFXIII VS but i'm not getting my hopes up for a purchase.
i'm just not feelin the love from RPG companies in general, most have this infatuation with grabbing me from my FPS with some sort of chimera-thing. obviously they arent getting that i went to shooters because they dont make them like they used to. you could look over my collection and see maybe 10 classic RPGs but you wont find a single one released in the last 5 years (save FFXII, least i think it was that recent)
so you RPG companies are welcome to keep floundering while i enjoy some MAG, BFBC2 and take little vacations to your past on the weekends. i'll let you know how it is.
As is true to my character in trying to make the best of a bad situation, I tried using the westernized FF13 as an opportunity to introduce my FPS/twitching friends to the world of Final Fantasy.
I had a diabolical plan in my head to hook them on that, and slowly addict them to the classics. Guess what happened?
I failed. Know why? The westernized FF13 still has too much waiting and not enough twitching for them. And they admit it. They absolutely could not STAND the fact you couldn't get your characters to dodge an attack.
So what did SE do in the end? They didn't appeal to western gamers very well AND they pissed off the ones loyal to them. It's like a really bad marriage. It's like SE is in love with the west and wants to be accepted by the west so badly, that they forget about the family that raised and loved them since birth. But in the end, their lover (Micro$oft) wasn't willing to make compromises, and they couldn't accept their new wife (SE) because they still resembled a little piece of their family (JRPG fans) towards whom Microsoft harbors so much hatred. If Microsoft wasn't such an abusive husband, they would have accepted SE for who they were and allowed them to maintain her good relationship with her family.
Instead, SE is destined to remain far too embarrassed to ever return to their family of JRPG fans (although just like the prodigal son from the Bible, we'd be more than willing to accept them back despite their past actions and disrespect), they will continue to try to appeal to their abusive lover while constantly falling short, resort to drug usage (of which MS will likely be an enabler towards) and inevitably commit suicide, no doubt leaving behind some infant company with a different name in it's wake that Microsoft will continue to abuse after SE's passing.
Square Enix… please. Just return home. We will dress you in our finest robes and kill the fattened calf in your honor.
I knew that would happen. The biggest problem isn't necessarily that Square-Enix wants to cater to the Western crowd, it's that they really have no idea what the Western crowd WANTS.
And like I said, it implies that those who loved their old Squaresoft games have magically shifted their opinions and preferences over the years. I'm sure SOME have, but I refuse to believe there aren't millions who haven't…
That makes alot of sense to me. Do you or anyone else here happen to know how the Japanese market feels about this entry into the series? I'd be curious to know if they feel similarly to us.
Haha, it's funny you bring that up. Not often, but at times I found myself moving the right analog in an attempt to dodge an attack. I'm such a noob. :}
It's a pretty big assumption that "few want turn-based or other traditional RPG themes to return." What evidence do you have to support this?
I wouldn't just write the problem off to "twitch gamers" today. Then you're just pressing all of us into boxes to define us. Furthermore, rather than showing anticipation for the future of games, this article laments the loss of its past. I don't quite agree with that, what with all the new and exciting stuff on the horizon.
Besides, how many times have you said this before?
I don't think you quite get it.
At no point have any of the authors on this site not shown anticipation for the future. There are certain elements of the past that DEFINE the genre fans want. Taking away a turn-based aspect from a genre of turn-based games is like taking the strategy element out of strategy games, and eliminating your favorite pro sports team from a sports game. Sure, it still is close enough to the original to be called a sports game, but if the best part is that you can make a guy with YOUR NAME play for your favorite sports team, why take away that aspect?
In fact, you are grossly misinformed to suggest no one is future focused. I think Ben's opinion especially, has a major complaint that the most recent FF installment is not as revolutionary as FF's of the past have been. Before, they always set the bar. Remember that intro at the start of FF6 with Terra, Biggs, and Wedge walking across the snow plains through the credits? Even then, for the SNES, I was like "Woh! That's cool!".
So, tell me this… Why can't an RPG dev develop a revolutionary game with new stories, battle systems, amazing graphics, in depth side-quests and exploration, and is somehow throughout all this turn-based? I would argue, that while FF13 was a great game, it was NOT revolutionary, the story was only OK, did NOT have in depth exploration or many side-quests (missions are pretty much it), and it's battle system lacked customization (would have been better to have gambits or something again so I could decide what the AI characters used FIRST. I'm sick of waiting for my saboteurs casting deshell, deprotect, curse, and daze before getting to the poison spell I WANT them to cast first).
I just feel it's shortsighted to say games must give up PRIMARY themes in order to be future focused. Sure, scrap the little things and improve upon errors, but when it comes to something as FUNDAMENTAL as turn-based battles or exploration, I speak for many of us here by saying it's actually a step backwards and not a progression.
Also, in terms of evidence to support that people want traditional aspects to return, just read this thread and other threads on the site. There are many of us that haven't been satisfied with RPG's in years. I, for one, fit into that very category Ben describes. I know a couple of my FF fan friends that feel the same way. If I ask them what they think, it almost always starts out with something like, "I dunno… like… I LIKED it… but… yeah… I dunno… I wanted something more… like… not that it isn't good; it's great… but… yeah… you know what I mean?"
I can't speak for the writers here; what I was saying about anticipation for the future is that this article specifically (and just this article) doesn't show it.
Nowhere did I say or imply that nobody is future focused.
So you know, I have played Tactics, VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, and XII, so I'm not completely ignorant of this topic. It is a shame that Squeenix lost whatever it was that gave us FF VII. However, I think we've all agreed on this and should thus move on and stop returning to dwell on it. After all, it's free publicity for Squeenix, which they do not deserve (and which they use FFVII to shamelessly milk).
I'm the odd duck here because the Square Enix I miss is the one from the SNES era. My love for the Playstation platform mostly has its roots in franchises that began on PS1 or PS2, whereas Final Fantasy VII was where Square and I started parting ways. I know I've said it before on this site but I'm not so arrogant as to expect folks to remember li'l ol noob me, but it's kind of fascinating seeing Playstation era Square fans become disenfranchised with the company the way I did back in 97.
That's not to say I don't still enjoy the occasional Square game, but now they're more like just another game company, with all the good and bad that entails. Like, I dunno, an Ubisoft or something.
Oh yes, and for anyone really itching for a PSone era style Square game, if you have an iPod/iPhone/iPad/iWhatever check out Chaos Rings (published by Square Enix). Not quite the scope of a Final Fantasy, but it is old fashioned turn based RPG through and through.
I miss SquareSoft. Heck I'll even settle for the latter company, Square.
FF13 didn't start to feel like an FF game until about 35-40hrs into it. What a disappointment!
But Ben, didn't Squaresoft do this exact same thing in the Super Nintendo days? I think the game was called FF RPG or something? No..It was "Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest"! It was a dumbed down FF. Square thought the West was too stupid and wanted to build a RPG "so easy, an American can do" game.
And IGN quotes, "The result wasn't just a game of minimal grinding and low shop prices, it was an almost wholly linear experience, where movement was restricted to dotted lines connecting areas, and the computer controlled all but one member of your party."
Wow. That sounds like a game that Square-Enix just put out, huh? Well that game sold modestly, just like FF13 (IMO, FF13 should've sold twice as much in the 1st month). And it seems like history is repeating itself. After FF: Mystic Quest, Square released FF5 in Japan only…leaving American's in the cold. Bad moves on Square's part.
BUT, all was forgiven after FF6 was released to the West. So, I'm just hoping that Versus and FF14 will redeem Square-Enix, like FF6 redeemed SquareSoft.
*fingers-crossed*
Last edited by King James on 4/28/2010 7:00:51 PM
I don't know what to say. Since the first FF (NES) I've played, it had turned my RPG world into one largely influential estate of gaming. I played games that remotely reminded me of the series (Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermore, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, Lufia) and realized how much leverage SquareSoft had on the gaming industry and most importantly on the RPG players.
It was a simple formula (back on FF series here) that used something most non-gamers didn't consider; these games required knowledge, patience and, most importantly, incredible story lines. They only did themselves a favor by keeping to this formula. Turn based fighting that really needed to be used for every strike you can get. There wasn't all this slash and bash crap. If you weren't mentally capable of defeating your enemy, brawn brought your gaming to a halt!
The story lines may still be phenomenal, but that's not the only reason we play games. We like a challenge, but we like it done in a recipe that makes that challenge very different from the rest. It's how we prepared ourselves for battle. How we roamed to our quests, learning more and more from individuals we met on a map that didn't restrict our imagination. It was about discovering weapons a quick walk-by will miss. All the glory in defeating enemies of that new land you find that'll destroy you if you slip in your own technique.
It was a very thrilling universe where no one told me how to play it. There weren't any rules to how well or how little I prepare for battle. You could make or break deals depending on how you approach someone. You can open your path to more treasures by saying the right thing. You can be who you want to be solely based on who you are.
That's gone. There isn't any love for that gaming anymore from these massive companies that overshadow what the gamers want. They care about numbers and will not stop until they drive that point home. Unfortunately S-E, the idiots HAD those numbers. They HAD those fans. All they needed to do was let their masterminds spin the web of storytelling and introduce yet another amazing piece of gaming history that'll leave every fan and every interested gamer, world-wide, in complete awe of it. An experience that'll cling onto you forever. That experience many of us share for FFVII and lust for it to once again bring our living rooms to life with such a compelling story, an immense world to do with as we choose and a TURN-BASED battle system that'll once again put the strategy in the hands of the true beholder; the gamers.
I refuse to believe that day is gone, but perhaps it won't be one seen at the hands of S-E. The gamers are a ever-growing population. It's only a matter of time before someone amongst you and I who knows how an amazing RPG game play and feel will give that to us. In return, my money and devotion they shall receive.
Last edited by DemonNeno on 4/28/2010 7:23:10 PM
Great article and it hits home … lets hope parasite eve 3,ffversus and ff14 impress if not I will stubb out my candle of hope for SE.
Level 5 are my fav JRPG devs now I am gonna come out and say it I do prefer Turn Based RPG's, I am currently playing WKC and … Shadow Hearts: FROM THE NEW WORLD(ps2) oh in from the new world I am about 6hours in an have around 10 differant things I can do with with my time FF13 at 7 hours was the same as when I booted the dam game. But ROGUE GALAXY is possibly my fav rpg and the dark cloud games are awesome to, Level 5 did real time combat great and are doing Turn based combat just as good, btw I just got my shield for my White Knight awesome cut scene 🙂
Thumbs up for you!
Not that it would be entirely bad, but I fear FFXIV will carry a similar leveling system as FFXIII. I recall reading somewhere that gamers won't be leveling their characters, but instead leveling their weapons or weapon skills.
What is happening with Square Enix is indicative of what is happening to the videogame market in Japan.  The market there is shrinking for console games because handhelds and cell phone games are king since most people have to commute via trains, buses, etc.  Japanese companies are trying to develop games for a completely different culture and are having a difficult time.  A lot of the humor and subjects that are referred to in their games western audiences wouldn't "get".  Not out of stupidity but of ignorance of Japanese culture.  Also many Japanese developed games are more cerebral than western games and I know a lot of people do not want to have to make a large investment of time to one particular game to get their monies worth.  Hence the popularity of online shooters.  One can play for and hour, with friends, not get emotionally invested and come back to it a week later and not have to worry about stories and grueling boss battles. As you age, you start realizing that spending hundreds of hours with one game is not only a huge commitment but also sometimes not feasible with a job, kids, a wife/husband et cetera. Â
I believe the place for RPG's is the DS.  There's alot of variety; most are turn based and most are made by Japanese developers: Atlus, R&D 1; Nude Maker, Platinum Games; Nintendo, Intelligence Systems et cetera.  If you are truly a RPG aficionado then your best bet is to quit complaining about them not being on consoles (which I had to) and go to where they are being developed for (portable systems).  Here's some RPG love: Infinite Space; Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey: Etrian Odyssey I & II; Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner; The World Ends with You; Knights in the Nightmare; Luminous Arc I and II; The Dark Spire.  I could name more but you get the point.  Trying to find good rpg's on console systems is like trying to find intellectually stimulating programming on television: you can but it's really hard to find because it is produced for the masses. Â
On a side note I really like Final Fantasy XIII. Â The first 30 hours were filler but once you set foot on Gran Pulse it really is a unique, living breathing world. Â To compare XIII to a game like Final Fantasy Mystic Quest is gross exaggeration. Â Mystic Quest was for children, not for adult consumtion. Â It was an intuitive, barebones RPG. Â Was it bad? Â No. Â Could it be they were introducing a new genre to people under 10 years of age so they could enjoy other similar RPG's? Maybe. Â But Final Fantasy XIII is not that. Â Many people that I have showed Final Fantasy XIII have no idea what is going on. Â There is an enormous amount of multitasking and you must be paying attention at ALL times and have a proper paradigm set up for when a different situation arises. Â The battle system doesn't seem pedantic to me, maybe a little convoluted but it definitely has depth. Â I think XIII is probably the best console RPG I have played since Persona 3 and to me that is quite a compliment. Â
Finally, I know Final Fantasy VII was great when I played it back in 1997. Â Now it just seems like a relic that should be forgotten. Â If someone could explain why the story (which has numerous grammatical and typographical errors) is better than XIII's, I would like to read it. Â Not trying to flame but I do not know if all this Final Fantasy VII love is hive mind mentality or genuine.
Last edited by Solaris Knight on 4/29/2010 8:51:19 PM
***FF7 spoilers ahead***
I don't mind fielding the FFVII question, although I won't spend much time on it since this thread is more or less dead now.
First of all, the character development in FFVII is a little more heartily worked out. In FFXIII, everyone has a tiny little back story, but very little explanation as to why a particular character is the way they are. None of them are that interesting, although as I mentioned before and read others say, Fang could have a very interesting back story. Wish I knew more of it.
It is true the editing in the English version of FFVII is a little to be desired. I commented once that the characters don't think too deeply, but I believe this to be due to translation not being strong. Remember how FFVI spelled a very useful item "Fenix Down"?
The back stories behind the characters, however, are fantastic. Of course, for some, it's taken additional plugs into the story, like Dirge of Cerberus or Crisis Core, to fully develop them. Take Vincent, for example. An honest, hard-working Turk devoted to protecting the woman he loves is unable to protect her from making perhaps the greatest mistake. Not only was his body transformed, but his psyche takes a toll due to the blame he feels for not being able to stop the most fate-of-the-world altering event from happening to the woman he loves: the birth and creation of Sephiroth. Vincent doesn't even begin to forgive himself until a dialogue with Cloud in Advent Children near the Forgotten Capital.
I think Crisis Core did wonders for developing the characters of the various Turks, Aerith (Aeris depending on your version), Cloud, and especially Zack and his relationship with Sephiroth. Tie that in with Tifa's desire just to be with Cloud and everything she went through, Barret's back-story explaining why he's involved from the loss of his wife, family, and friends, the back-stories to people like Professor Gast, Hojo, Ifalna, and you realize quickly that there are a million different events that needed to happen to get to the point the story takes.
Red XIII and Yuffie even have good back stories. Anything that is touching surrounding family, of course, usually hits home for me though.
So, FFXIII had small backstories, but it is extremely minimal in explaining how everyone came together. FFVII has a 5-10 year history (what is probably 25+ for Vincent) to get to a certain point. There is far more complexity in the story. FAR more. Sure, the dialogue was poor (although wonderful, as far as I'm concerned, in Crisis Core), but it's kind of like Star Wars. Amazing story and complex history, but "meh"-ish dialogue. I personally like FFVII's story. It just feels like it's bigger. It definitely takes far more time to understand and discover the many different angles than FFXIII takes.
***FFXIII SPOILER ALERT IN THIS PARAGRAPH!***
I love how seemingly simple and fun characters turn out to be complex individuals. FFXIII kinda does that with Vanille, and I thought, "Oh good, she's going to get interesting!". But as it turns out, she was just embarrassed about lying. I was so excited to find out the deep, dark secrets about Lightnings name, but it came out pretty simply and made no impact. I ended up saying to myself, "oh… that's all?". And what's complex about Snow wanting to rescue his fiancee? Didn't Super Mario Bros. on NES cover that one? Hope was just an annoying scaredy-cat who blamed Snow for his mom's death, which is stupid, he obviously watched him try to save her. Sazh is just an old, depressed guy focused on his son. Fang was actually interesting, but they didn't explain her past prior to her original focus. Except that she lived in a tight knit community. I mean, seriously… Everyone has ONE motivator in life, and only extremely recent events motivate them into action. That first chapter fal-Cie fight could have been moving had I been invested in the characters by that point.
***END FFXIII SPOILERS***
I just feel far more depth in 7 than 13. And in all honesty, it simply is NOT revolutionary by any means. There was obviously more work put into the story of FFVII. We'll have to see how the rest of the FFXIII trilogy fills in the blanks.
P.s. I have FFVII and FFVIII on my PSP, and they're great as portable/small amount of time games.
lol… turns out I did spend some time on it…
Also, while I do feel grammatical errors and typos take away from what lines COULD have said and DO imply, I think if you're good at seeing characters for who they are, it's easy to realize how in depth it is. (Keep in mind, many grammatical errors are merely that particular character's way of speaking.)
Oh ya… I've never been able to understand what the heck Barret is talking about when he says something about the $&@*$%&* Pizza whatever when on the train in Midgar… ?
Also, sorry for how hastily I wrote that long blurb. I didn't edit it at all. lol
Oh. And I do not know why there are textual anamolies in my postings. Maybe because I am typing on a smartsphone?