Ben-DutkaThe gaming community has once again responded to another of Roger Ebert's seemingly disparaging comments about video games. First, he restates a previous sentiment – that video games simply cannot be labeled as "art" – and secondly, he said he might not appreciate this entertainment medium because he's too "well-read." Now, I have two responses to this, but I'm not about to embark on the art debate because in my eyes, there's simply far too much subjectivity involved on either side of the fence. All I'll say is this- if games indeed implement elements from other entertainment venues that are considered "art" – i.e., artistry/design, choreography, writing, cinematography, acting, etc. – I'm a little confused as to how the entire package fails to register as "art." So the individual components are "art," but you when put them all together, the final product…isn't?
Okay, whatever. I'm not going to pursue that. But I would like to point out that if we are to compare video games against the other major forms of entertainment, it seems to me as if gaming is the only form that is headed in the right direction. Mr. Ebert, I respect you and all, but most of the films made in the past decade or so have only insulted the hell out my intelligence. I am aware that various independent and less-than-popular movies are excellent, but there was a time when the popular movies were also the biggest hits in the box office. These days, the stupidest pieces of tripe are the most popular and while I do – sadly – see gaming headed in that same direction, the industry is currently in the position film was in perhaps 25 or 35 years ago: they were getting better in terms of the intelligent aspects, and the population responded to that quality. In this industry, most of the best titles are also bestsellers…that is not the case in movies, music, or books. Not when Danielle Steele can manage to sell a gajillion copies of the same book for a hundred years.
Now, as for that "well-read" bit. I will not claim to be as well-read as Ebert but I'm willing to bet I could converse with him for quite some time; my list of completed literary classics runs for about six pages, and I have long since vowed to read as many of the best pieces of literature as humanly possible before I die. My favorite authors are George Eliot (who was actually Marianne Evans), Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Thomas Mann, Edith Wharton, Leo Tolstoy, and Henry David Thoreau. I suppose my favorite playwright would have to be Henrik Ibsen for now, but I haven't yet read Shaw or Chekov (the latter is next on my list, in fact). And here's a fact about me that few people realize: I'd give up my games before I gave up my books. It'd be hard, but I would. Nothing gives me such a feeling of complete satisfaction as these unbelievably ingenious novels. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the way of such genius in this generation of writers, which I believe is a result of the rapid-fire, ultimately inferior communication that continues to plague artistry and creativity.
Yes, literature has declined terribly. And so has music – or whatever the hell passes for music these days – and the same goes for movies. Gaming, on the other hand, while it is admittedly behind in terms of writing and character development, continues to make strides forward . There are fans of every entertainment medium and I'm sure some will disagree, but I wonder if those same people have watched the transformation and growth of this industry we love since its infancy period. Therefore, as a message to Mr. Ebert, regardless of the claims against or for the "art" description, I believe I am quite well-read, and I believe that making a statement insinuating that those who can't boast of my reading resume are simply too smart for video games…well, obviously, I find it disagreeable and inaccurate. If you can find someone who names "Middlemarch" and "Anna Karenina" as their two favorite novels, I will have to meet that person, as I will be convinced said individual is nothing more than a ghostly fabrication until I shake his or her hand.
You see, we all have our passions. But what's important is that we take a step back and do some comparisons, and apply the proper respect where respect is warranted. I suppose I'm asking this-
Rather than focusing on what gaming isn't , why can't we focus on what gaming is , and could eventually become ?
Games are a product which are a collection of various arts. I'd like to see the reaction from the musicians, background and character designers, et al when told what they do is not art. Ebert should be looking at the Uncharted 2 ART book.
Anyway, saying that a person who is too well read can't enjoy games is foolish, as Ben proved. I can understand when someone is just too OLD to get into them or appreciate them though.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 4/22/2010 10:16:24 PM
I have to agree with you… especially because I am trying to obtain my bachelor's in Game Art & Design. Saying that video games are not art is like saying the degree I am working towards is a piece of toilet paper, or some tissue someone sneezed in.
Having looked Ebert up for an assignment I had to do for class, I respect him as a person and all, but he's just that… one person. The day I take his opinion over my own is the day I quit gaming, which will happen three days from never.
Besides, I read some of the reviews he did for a couple movies I liked, and didn't agree with his opinion at all. To me he is simply one face within an amazingly large crowd, his influence essentially minute.
I am old and I appreciate video games. I believe that statement was unfair. I am also well read. I love voltaire as much as keats and as much as King. I believe some hate video games simply because they never allowed themselves to become submersed in a story or the action of a well put together game. That and Ebert has always seemed like a giant ass. Remember critics are all frustrated actors and writers who were not good enough to actually be actors and writers . so they bitterly critique.
Thanks for selecting that picture. Brings back good memories.
As for Roger Ebert, shut your pie hole ASAP.
What experience are you pulling your opinion from? What games have you played, or witnessed played.
Are you going to state your opinion on a movie you haven't seen?
Imagine the hours that go into producing the amazing visuals in these games. Now then tell the individuals who have spent years perfecting their craft and tell them what they do is not an art form.
So dissapointing Mr. Ebert. We all have opinions, but I would gather you haven't given this much thought, otherwise you would come to a very different conclusion.
Last edited by MyWorstNightmar on 4/22/2010 10:22:53 PM
I don't know why anyone listens to him, his movie reviews are very short sighted.
Couldn't agree with world more.
Games are essentially museums. Take God of War III for example.
-high artistic value in the scenery, straight from the concept art
-insane, beautiful orchestral musical score
-period storytelling
I'll say this; games have had a much more profound effect on me than any painting.
Perhaps he can't get past the skull crushing. But I know he appreciates well done action or horror genre movies, so what's the deal movie man?
I think it's safe to say that skull crushing is an art form in itself.
Video games not art? Lol! Somebody should shut this guy up. I am not even sure he knows what art means. There is a reason why video game companies hire ARTISTS from ART schools to create software. I am completely appalled at this guy's statment. I mean, how ignorant can somebody get?
"There is a reason why video game companies hire ARTISTS from ART schools to create software."
Car and motorcycle manufacturers also hire artist from art schools. Now by your reasoning does that make cars and motorcycles art?
Yes I would include cars and motorcycles as art. They require a persons skills, creativity, and imagination to create.
Using creativity and imagination to create something sounds like art to me, altho I guess lots of people could define art in different ways.
here's a car, looks like art to me.
http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/article/713/713588/top-10-tuesday-concept-cars-20060620041319549.jpg
There's guys in the car world who would say that Cars are a work of art. I would tend to agree. Take a look at how a car is made. It is a depiction of the designer's insight. Why do you think car shows are so popular? It's a place where a bunch of people get together and show off what they've done. A car is just a different form of canvas.
If you've ever watched a Barrett-Jackson auction, you'll see what I mean. The attention to detail that goes into a car? Sure some people will think it's "just a car" but to others, to own a piece of that automotive history to display in you driveway or garage? Sounds like art to me.
Not to mention when you look at a well made car, like an Austin Martin…you can't help but admire it. The lines, the style, the curves is like looking at an artist's brush stroke. And most cars start out as a clay model before being turned into an actual car.
Last edited by CH1N00K on 4/23/2010 9:53:01 AM
A2K78
Unfortunately, society sees art only as painting and drawing. But there is more to art than that. A motorcycle IS art because to create it, artists have to go through the art process-in this case mainly design. If you want to know how to create a motorcycle, you have to understand, harmony, variety, movement, unity, balance, and proportion. All of these listed here are principles art. In summary a motorcycle is art because artists play the key role in developing it by going through the art process.
Last edited by Bugzbunny109 on 4/23/2010 4:17:53 PM
Roger Ebert has just made the list along side Dave Cox of people Who Need To Be Slapped.
Groinslapped.
groin punched
A2K78,
Yes some cars & motorcycles are art, and some are even considered masterpiece, as any gear-head can vouch for the car side.
And I'll take the motorcycle side of things….
In 1998, the Guggenheim Museum in New York had a famous exhibit called the "Art of the Motorcycle"…..
http://www.guggenheim.org/new-york/press-room/press-releases/press-release-archive/2001/675-october-7-the-art-of-the-motorcycle
And in 1997, there was also the "Liquid Chrome Exhibit" motorcycle in New York too…..
Art is too subjective
It will take a millennium for society to agree that v-games is art.
It's OBVIOUS video games is art. Most everything is CREATED, that alone is art, for me anyway.
i hope to reincarnate and remember that I was one of those who believed that v-games was indeed art.
FLOWER ……………………………………………………. enough said
I remember that he likened Flower to a greeting card in one of his interviews… Yeah, that was the end of me being cordial with him. I could respect his opinion up to that point.
Taken the words right of my mouth.
It's a shame Siskel isn't still around to give Ebert 2 thumbs down on national TV……..
and a very good face-palming too!
2 very big thumbs down for Mr. Jackasssss.
I guess he just has to have a controversial opinion on everything to stay interesting as a mainstream critic.
at the very least, Siskel kept an open mind about this kind of stuff. I remember he gave mortal kombat a thumbs up and said he sort of wanted to play the game at least once just out of curiosity.
I am pretty sure he is just claiming this out of frustration.
Bet his son beat him at mario bros and he held a grudge against it hahaha.
In other words he never got to finish a game. It's like looking at the tiny left corner of a painting… Is that art? Not really right? You have to look at the whole thing before considering it ART… So there you go…
In other words, my guess is he lacks other skills than being *well-read* and can't enjoy games as much as other *well-coordinated* people can. Then he looked at Ben and felt frustration and jealousy before a person who is *well-read* and also *well-coordinated* . And that is how he came to make such a shameless comment. Shame shame shame on him. 😀
If Uncharted 2 isn't art, I don't know what the hell is…
Kojima agrees with Ebert:
http://kotaku.com/150043/kojima-says-games-are-not-art
Anyhow videogames are not not art but entetainment instead. To say that video games is art would be like saying pornography is art.
I read that article and kojima pretty much contradicts himself in that one paragraph. Saying it isn't art because it's supposed to reach everyone, but then basically saying its a kind of art.
A2K78,
And that article was back from Feb 2006, I would think Kojima's "old" statement back then is irrelevant for these times now. Both, the games, & the graphics, have changed ten-fold for the better since then.
Some interviewer should ask him if he still thinks that same way now.
(And I'll bet he doesn't).
mmm I don't even know how you can compare pron to games. All they do is film two people doin it in some crappy re-used 500 times set with practically no story-telling. To some extend you could say its utterly crappy art lol.
Still if games are not ART then movies aren't either, They go through the same process nowadays (creation pipeline). And why not say paintings are not art either. Any 5 yrs old can do abstract huh? And music… Just some doods hitting and pinching pieces of metal and wood… so primal… Theres no Art there huh?
And why not say you go watch a painting for entertainment purpose. Isn't it the same thing? Some Art is meant to amaze and question yourself and other to entertain.
Video games don't differ from that. They go through character and set design with thousands of drawings and ideas… Then those Ideas are shared through a Media for you to experience them. The same way some painter puts paint on a piece of paper for you to look at in a museum after.
No one is perfect and it is not because Kojima says he thinks games are not art that I will agree with him. I think he made a mistake saying that.
I think the definition of art is too vague. You make that statement to someone who is in the porn industry like a director…they will try to tell you that what they are doing is art. I'm sure when movies first came out that there was someone back in that day who used to say that film wasn't art.
ebert is just mad he can't fully enjoy these jaw-dropping games. (LOL!)
but realistically, yes, games are art. like another online forum said, they are art on top of more art piled on by more art.
They have actors like a movie.
Artists like a painting.
Writers like a book or screenplay.
Designers and architects like a beautiful cathedral.
And they can stir emotion on the viewer like a poem or a sonnet.
They're art.
Last edited by Superman915 on 4/22/2010 11:58:14 PM
In essence, v-games is BEYOND art
v-games is Super Art
Very well spoken Ben! I was hoping you would give your opinion on this matter. I agree with you.
LittleBigPlanet and tens of thousands of art students would be on the polar opposite side of the fence as Mr. Ebert. The Wipeout Franchise, with it's graphic design, new-age futuristic motif, and phat beats almost single-handedly grabbed me in to gaming by it's artistic touch alone. Shadow of The Colossus has yet to find it's like on the TV screen. Flow and Flower? Portal? All of these games are sufficient argument, and with arguments like these, one needn't fear to pick a side on this topic.
Ebert is a dinosaur
Mr. Ebert should just shut up…
Oh, wait. You guys might not know this but Roger Ebert can't talk any more due to his thyroid cancer. Sadly, he can still write his dated opinions on why video gaming isn't considered art.
Then again, nobody is going to convince this old fogey that he's wrong.
For the record, everyone, I have nothing bad to say about Ebert. Anybody who has a Pulitzer Prize at home is no dummy, and deserves some respect. I also tend to agree with a lot of his movie views.
It's not so much him I'm going after; it's some of the concepts that have arisen as a result of his comments.
Just got through God of War and Pandora's maze. I was pretty impressed. The design of that maze brings you back to a central area several times. To design that, and have it not be crap, you actualy have to layout some paper first, then DESIGN a maze like that. Saying the architecture of a design like that isn't art, is just plain ignorance.
I used to really like Ebert, then, I don't know if I got older and changed my views or what, but I started disagreeing with almost every single review he had.
About video games, he has NO idea what he's talking about. Being too "well read" is utter nonsense. He using his twisted stereotypical attitude about video games, and probably hasn't played anything since Pac Man in 1975.
I'm certain he hasn't sat down and played a $ 10 million game this millineum.
It doesn't matter if you like Ebert or not, the view that video games aren't/don't contain art is ridiculous.
I think he's been out of touch for a while, but I'll let him pass for digging The Dude.
I like Ebert too, quite a bit. He's an amazing writer, shares my political beliefs, and honestly has to be admired for all that he's put up with his health.
With that said, he's not only wrong on video games, he's straight up insulting in them "He's too well read to get video games." as he stated in a twitter. GTFOH. Steven Spielberg has been playing video games since he made Jaws and I don't think anyone in his career would consider him an idiot.
Ebert is a political light weight. Thinks too much with his emotions and not enough with his brain. Smart guy, but not very wise.
Yeah but youre kind of a right wing loon (no offense) so its not surprising you feel that way.
I don't like this man. Hes a moral idiot and has bad taste in movies so i couldn't care less about his opinion on games. Most people his age frown upon games and gamers. *shrug*
@A2K
After reading Kojima's statements for why video games are not pieces of art, I can appreciate and respect his reasons and opinions. To sum up Kojima's argument, video games are not considered as works of art because they are more of a service for the consumer rather than a reflection of some value of the individual creating it. This makes perfect sense IMO. Kojima is arguing that video games are censored and have to be mended and molded for marketing purposes.
I sort of relate this to how books have to be manipulated and engineered when they are transferred to the big screen. Books to movies also need movie scripts; books can't simply transfer the entire experience it contains. This tampering of the original and artistic value of the media in an attempt to appeal to its audience destroys the artistic element originating in the book source.
However, when looking at art as being this pure, undisturbed, and personal creation, one could argue many things that are considered art, not to be by this idea and definition Kojima conjures it.
Despite Kojima's definition of art, art itself is what makes up a game. The games art style, its character models and background settings, down to the music that could invoke an emotion in our hearts given the right mood and event. When looking upon video games in this way, video games are more artistic than many other different variations of media.
Ebert, at least argue your point with valid reasons for why something can't be viewed as an artistic medium after you make such a claim. Honestly, I can respect and appreciate Kojima's reasoning because he brings to surface a compelling idea I have never before pondered. Next time Ebert, before you wave around your Pulitzer prize in all its glory, be sure to also carry around your justification for receiving it.
well what is the definition of art?
as they say one mans garbage is another mans trophy.
art is such a subjective medium, i mean scrambled letters to some is considered art?
ill never understand that, i can paint scrambled letters so does that make me a artist?
While I don't think ebert is dumb, I've rarely agreed with him anyway, so this doesn't surprise me.
Personally I think that claiming anything is not art is ridiculous. I don't care for the mona lisa and yet its one of the most famous pieces of art on earth. Yet some pieces of art that evoke an emotional response from me, wouldn't effect other people.
IMO art is anything that moves us inside or out. FF7 made me cry, thats art to me.
My sister still (10+ years later) doesn't let the fact that I cried at a video game (FF7 too!) die. It gives her and her snobby music major friends something to laugh at every Christmas. lol. ^.^ By the way, my wife LOVES that story… >.<
Last edited by Underdog15 on 4/23/2010 9:25:52 AM
lmao that she still can't let it go. I guess that's my sister too now, who'll bring up and start arguing about crap from 1994 over something that happened yesterday.