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Sony Seeking Alternatives To Cell Architecture For PS4

I think most of us are hoping the PS4 is still a long ways off, but that won't stop Sony from conducting the appropriate research.

We've already heard whispers of the new PlayStation and it seems we'll be seeing a bit more in the way of news and details in 2010. According to Kotaku citing Japanese website PC Watch, Sony is apparently "looking to alternatives to the PS3's Cell architecture," and a few early ideas have included the Cell and Intel's Larrabee. Sony passed on this latter concept because they want "a bit more horsepower," and they might now be working on new designs featuring a multicore CPU. At this point, most analysts don't believe we'll see the next Xbox or PlayStation until 2012, although Nintendo may release a high-definition version of the Wii before then. Thing is, it takes a while to design and ultimately produce a brand new machine and besides, consumers do need some time to acclimatize themselves to each new generation. Sony continues to insist that the PS3 will have a 10-year-lifespan but of course, the PS3 could stick around for quite a while after the PS4 arrives. Just look at the PS2.

Whatever they decide to do with the next PlayStation, Sony should never forget that their popular brand name has been built with the excellent software that has been available for their consoles. Oh, we shouldn't worry…they haven't forgotten yet, anyway.

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Jawknee
Jawknee
15 years ago

Baaaah, hope the analysts are wrong. 2012 is too soon.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
15 years ago

far too soon.

to_far_apart
to_far_apart
15 years ago

Can't afford for it to be that soon, my wallet is cringing already hahah

Well, one positive thing is that they're now starting to think about the developers here, because we all know it took developers to get comfortable with the cell processor. Why not keep the processor, just add something to it? Just an idea haha

If a PS4 does come around soon, the only thing i ask for is, backwards compatibility. My PS3 is backwards compatible, but how about a more rock solid one, maybe play every PS brand game? PS1 – PS3? A little ambitious, but that would help a lot of people decide haha

Either way, good to see sony looking at different things, I'm not looking to buy another console for years to come, I'm happy with how it is right now.

Fane1024
Fane1024
15 years ago

Exactly.

They know how to program for the Cell now; keep the basic architecture the same and they'll be able to make the transition as easily as if it were a standard PC architecture.

PLUS THE PS4 WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY PS3 GAMES WITHOUT ANY EXTRA EQUIPMENT/EMULATION!

(sorry about the caps; I thought the point deserved shouting)

randomname
randomname
15 years ago

And the wand is barely comming out next year.

BikerSaint
BikerSaint
15 years ago

If Sony want's a real 100% winner, the PS4 better have B/C with "EVERY" prior Playstation console too.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

To be backward compatible with the PS3 Sony has to either include the CellBE in the design, or use a PowerPC based processor and include a Toshiba Spurs engine. The Spurs chip is the SPEs from teh Cell without the PowerPC core, so that along with the IBM Power 7 would be an ideal platform to emulate a CellBE on.

Gregory Freeman
Gregory Freeman
15 years ago

if they move away from CBE and don't support ps3, then il go microsoft..

nah joking… might buy a sega jupiter

XD lol

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

How does stating facts about a computer architecture get a thumbs down? What was I too close to the truth? Cue the X-Files music.

Nynja
Nynja
15 years ago

@Highlander

Maybe they don't agree with the SPUR suggestion for backwards compatibility.

Or

Probably because to some, you might as well just speak Chinese.

Or

Just some tool running through all the comments giving thumbs down.

neighber
neighber
15 years ago

And or a Cd Changer, so i dont have to switch out disk, or 2 lasers ps2 and ps4 to be compatible with all.

BikerSaint
BikerSaint
15 years ago

Well, those 3 thumbs down can't be because I said the PS3 should be BC with every PS gen, so the thumbs down's must be just for me.

Like I really care…
so F*ck all 3 of ya!

LittleBigMidget
LittleBigMidget
15 years ago

Maybe they'll come wity something bigger than Blu-ray. And a processer 140x powerful than the current CELL. And I would love for MS to back into the HDVD market again. I know it won't but wow

dveisalive
dveisalive
15 years ago

screw that p3s is my last console because PS4 is gonna be expensive. It's gonna have even more horse power, shoot it might come close to pixar in a way, who even knows? Im sticking with PS3 and my future Nintendo HD etc….

Bugzbunny109
Bugzbunny109
15 years ago

I doubt that Sony will make the same mistake they made last time. The ps4 will come out at a reasonable price with reasonable technology. This is why they are being methodical…

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
15 years ago

You say that now…

to_far_apart
to_far_apart
15 years ago

hahahaha very true world

Alienange
Alienange
15 years ago

@ Bugzbunny109 – Their last mistake? Which one? The PS3 or the PSPGo?

Bugzbunny109
Bugzbunny109
15 years ago

Ps3

inkme101
inkme101
15 years ago

nintendo CEO said there will be NO wii HD. can u imagine the price tag on ps4? the ps3 was what? 600 bux when it launched.

Blaiyan
Blaiyan
15 years ago

They also said the wii wasn't go to get a price cut…

NeoHumpty
NeoHumpty
15 years ago

Frak! Guess I should go and get in line at K-Mart now. lol. Nah, I'll let it sit on the shelf until it drops a couple hundred bucks. And if it isn't b/c, it's a deal breaker this time. I'll go PC, I swear.

godsman
godsman
15 years ago

I think the PS4 will be cheap. It will probably launch at $399 at most. The main reason the PS3 was so expensive, was because Sony was trying to drive the blu-ray market.

Scarecrow
Scarecrow
15 years ago

Multi-core CPU! Now that sounds tasty!

But still, a long ways off (damn these analysts and their boring lives)

They're trying to INFLUENCE US AWAY FROM THIS GENERATION

They're seeing the ps3-shift (domination) and want to minimize it by moving the generation ahead with these damn news. (wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft is supplying them with this news lol)

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

IBM Power 7, meets the description as well as leveraging the existing development tools and skills.

bigrailer19
bigrailer19
15 years ago

2012 seems to soon, cus the PS3 is hitting stride late in its life but really its almost right on time with past console generations. I would personally like to see new consoles no earlier than 2013 or 2014. I would welcome the PS4 with open arms but it best be leaps above the PS3 otherwise it'll be a let down i guess. I guess what i mean is if the PS4 is released and its technically not far superior then, 2012 would be to soon!

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
15 years ago

They should keep the lid on this crap, it really makes me sick to hear that a generation which has barely begun might end in two years. I don't want to hear anything until 2014. I mean really, even with Uncharted 2 out they say there is still more to be done with the PS3. I know it will last well into the PS4's cycle but that's not the point, it will be a second class citizen then. Just keep making games on this system because even now it isn't mastered, and if they release a PS4 there will quite literally be NO games for it.

Alienange
Alienange
15 years ago

You said it.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

Power 7 with a spurs Engine for the Cell compatible SPEs.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
15 years ago

I have no idea what you just said but I like it.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

Power 7 is IBM's upcoming multi-core processor design in the Power PC family. The cell processor uses a PowerPC processor core along with 8 SPEs (these are special processor cores more optimized for math than general computing). The Power 7 also includes technology designed for the Cell processor, think of it as a member of the same processor family as the Cell, but a different branch of the family tree. When Sony sold Cell manufacturing to Toshiba, Toshiba started making something they call a Spurs Engine which is essentially a Cell processor without the PowerPC processor core and cache memory.

The Power7 will be IBMs most powerful processor yet, when it makes it to market. So it will be powerful enough to meet the demands of the next round of consoles. Adding in a Spurs Engine from Toshiba would provide the SPEs from the cell to allow a PS4 based on the Power 7 to be backwards compatible with the PS3.

___________
___________
15 years ago

dident that get canned when IBM announced there stopping production on cell based CPUs?
from what i remember they want out of the whole cell manufacturing market and are sticking to the good old multicore road.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

No the PowerCell8xi is the last Cell architecture chip, nothing beyond that will be developed, it wasn't the Power7 that got canned, it was further development of the Cell project beyond the PowerCel8xi that was canceled.

The Power7 is a PowerPC processor not a Cell architecture processor. However the technology used in the SPEs and the internal bus of the cell might be used to enhance that design. Power 7 is a multi-core PowerPC processor.

Here's an article at ArsTechnica about the Power7. No mention of any specific Cell technology involved, but the chip is a monster.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/ibms-8-core-power7-twice-the-muscle-half-the-transistors.ars

Here's a link from about a month ago quoting the usual Dutch sources claiming a version of Power7 specifically engineered for Sony will power the PS4.

http://forums.nzgamer.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14700.html


Last edited by TheHighlander on 12/29/2009 3:10:30 AM

Nynja
Nynja
15 years ago

Highlander;

What are your thoughts on which processor is better designed for gaming? Personally, I think dumping the CELL could lower the generation leap we Playstation fans have become accustomed to each new console. I suppose the SPUR could provide that expected horsepower we get from the PS3 when coupled with a multi-core PC based processor. Then that raises the question on system cost. In order to maintain backwards compatibility, the nVidia RSX chip would need to be included as well. Unless some engineers are able to emulate the run-time environment.

Although not ready for a PS4 purchase, I am ready to hear more info on the architecture. Some people are into muscle cars (Ben) and some into FLOPS.

junglemunquay
junglemunquay
15 years ago

@TheHighlander…

Some of that explanation was pure poetry!!!

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

@Nynja,

Well, I think that the Power 7 ought to be about 10 times faster than the Cell BE overall. It depends on how things develop over the next couple of years assuming that Sony wants to use this chip in a couple of years time it will need to shrink, become cheaper, and use a fraction of the energy it currently uses.

The Power 7 is about 10 times faster than the Cell BE for Double precision mathematics. The Cell had a simplified version of the PowerPC processor core, the Power7 uses a PowerPC core with every bell and whistle available, and it uses four, six or eight of these PowerPC cores. Even if the PowerPC core in the Cell were as powerful as the ones on the Power 7, it only has one, the Power 7 has up to eight. Each 'core' on the Power 7 has 12 execution units, there are 7 different kinds of execution unit including four Double Precision floating point math units. That means that on an eight core Power 7 chip, there will be 96 execution units in total, and 32 Double precision math units. You can think of these double precision units as being similar to the SPEs on the Cell.

Each of the cores on the Power7 can handle 4 threads or processes at once, so an 8 core chip can handle 32 simultaneous processes. The theoretical maximum performance of the Power7 is pegged at about 256GFLOPS per 8 core chip. That's double precision floating point operations. The Cell was capable (with all 8 SPEs running) of nearly the same number of GFLOPS in single precision, but in Double precision it was closer to 25GFLOPS. Power 7 is intended to be used in dual processor configurations so a dual chip module is capable of half a TeraFLOP – double precision.

Now, at this moment these monsters draw more power on their own (800 watts) than the original PS3 system did. So it will have to get smaller, cheaper and use less energy by the time Sony uses it (assuming that they do).

The reports I've read suggest that Sony will get a streamlined version tailored to the task. If that is the case that would help reduce cost, and energy consumption as well as reducing the transistor count and increasing th process yield.

Time will tell.

bigrailer19
bigrailer19
15 years ago

Yep! I like it! 😉

off topic: Highlander- Although most of the stuff you speak of i dont understand in the slightest. Reading your comments actually makes me feel smarter! I really learn from you. So i just wanna say thanks for posting and sharing your knowledge!


Last edited by bigrailer19 on 12/29/2009 1:19:07 PM

Alienange
Alienange
15 years ago

I couldn't possibly imagine all those moms and grandparents being excited about an HD Wii. What would Nintendo do? Release HD versions of their motion enhanced Gamecube games?

As for Sony developing a PS4, I suppose that's unavoidable. But talking about it now after only having had the PS3 for three years seems kind of premature and the media's sad attempt at garnering attention.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

MS needs a new console generation sooner rather than later so they can bury the 360 and it's reputation.


Last edited by TheHighlander on 12/28/2009 11:53:10 PM

Alienange
Alienange
15 years ago

Agreed. And in that respect, they're a bit of a wild card.

___________
___________
15 years ago

no they need to put their tail between their legs, admit they were bettered and go back to what they do best.
copying college students, creating a OS off it and making millions.
i almost fell of my bed, and pissed my pants of joy when i found out M$ word is going to be banned from shelf because it infringes with patent another companies WP uses.

there releasing natal for a reason, to try and drag out the 360s life, till they can get the R&D done.
if they have another stuff up like the RROD next gen they can kiss their monopoly goodbye.
id be very,very,VERY! worried if i was M$, times have changed.
in the past they copied or infringed on something, they threw cash at it and the problem disappeared.
but recently they have tried that, and have lost many cases.
only a matter of time till the lone wolf catches smell and hunts the dripping bloody caucus.

TheHighlander
TheHighlander
15 years ago

Yes I'd prefer them to tuck their tail and run as well, but they won't and the only way forward for them is to somehow erase the 360. What's funny is that to some extent they wanted the 360 to erase the original black and green behemoth…

SvenMD
SvenMD
15 years ago

@____: How can you say that if they have another RROD that it will be over for them?? They had the RROD the entire life of this console and THEY STILL SELL THEM, because for some reason people are still buying them.

I think your logic would be true if consumers would stop buying a known defective product and actually drive MS to create better products….but right now they don't have to… They just have to keep Bungie on their side.

Alienange
Alienange
15 years ago

@ TheHighlander – You know what's funny? If MS does come out with a new console to try and erase the past, would they be starting a next gen, or simply starting this one?

MyWorstNightmar
MyWorstNightmar
15 years ago

Sony may feel they have to beat Microsoft to the next gen.

Look what it did for the 360 beating the PS3 to market? They put out a piece of RROD garbage, but becuase they were first, and people made an initial "investment" in games, when their system would break, they didn't want to pay for a $600.00 PS3, and then games on top of it. They simply figure it is cheaper for them to buy another 360, and not let their investment in games be in vein.

Theory being that whichever is first (PS4 or XBOX720) will rule the generation simply by being first available to the consumer. For this reason, Sony might feel a need to beat Microsoft to be first out for the next generation of consoles, even though the PS3 would serve us plenty well for the next 5 years or beyond.


Last edited by MyWorstNightmar on 12/29/2009 12:16:18 PM

___________
___________
15 years ago

because as i said companies are starting to wake up and stand up against M$.
in the past and up until now companies have been scared to take M$ to court because there such a large company, in the last few years companies slowly have been stepping up and winning.
other companies are seeing this and saying if they can do it so can we.
M$ had a stranglehold on the market, any issues, lawsuits were put to bed by M$s checkbook.
companies are not putting up with that anymore.
most recent case being this company who wrote a part of M$s microsoft office word and M$ did not get permission from them to use it.
so they took M$ to court and won.
if M$ released their next console with the failure rate of the 360 they would get the pants sued off them.
companies were scared of M$, now there not so M$ has to either ship up, or move out, otherwise there going to be taken to the cleaners.

Charger7302
Charger7302
15 years ago

As long as the ps4 has horsepower to last a couple of years, not where developers use up its entire horsepower in less than 2 years hence the xbox360. And something thats reasonably priced.

WorldEndsWithMe
WorldEndsWithMe
15 years ago

It's just that… talking about it now makes it look like the PS3 didn't live up to expectations when there is still a long race to be run.

___________
___________
15 years ago

yea, my first guess would be the power PC.
i remember hearing IBM were working on a 2 PPE, 32 SPU version of the cell in the ps3.
now that would be interesting, same architecture so BC with ps3 games should be no problem, and should have no problems running a ps2 emulator.
5 things sony really need to get right for next gen, o and need to fix this gen.

1 BC is a must, for good, not for the first year of launch.

2 price is critical, imagine how many games we missed out on, because developers skipped the console because it was too expensive and people were not buying it.

3 reliability.
the ps3 maybe more reliable than the 360 (something im still wondering though) but its a long away from the wiis reliability.
anything thats 500 bucks or more should last me 4 years no problem.

4 hire some people who actually know how to code firmware updates.
for once i would like to download a FW update that does not break my ps3 in any way.
just once.
thats not too much to ask is it?

5 sony really needs to start pushing developers into bringing their games to sonys systems.
im always getting the impression sony does not give 3rd party developers the love they give first party devs.
theres a reason why FF, GTA, MGS, DMC, RE, are no longer sony exclusives.
its because m$ knows how to spend money, and they treat developers like their family, no matter if there 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

me personally do not want a PS4 till 2013 at the earliest, and will be surprised if its released any earlier than that.

what i do want though is a PSP 2.
not a PSP 4000 or whatever new redesign they can think of.
i want a full fledged new PSP, with HD graphics.
i know, that sounds like allot, but look at M$s ZUNE HD, man that things impressive.
if a software company can do it, a hardware company can.
as one very wise old man once told me.
"never get a software company to do hardware, and never get a hardware company to do software."
now i can see why.

sonic1899
sonic1899
15 years ago

didn't FF and MGS start on nintendo before moving to to playstation and the RE series were also on dreamcast and gamecube as well as the ps2?