Ben-DutkaForgive the caustic headline, but it best summarizes the subject at hand.
I'm not going to sit here and say there's a universal method to reviewing video games. Every source has its own style and chooses to place more emphasis on different elements of a game, and it's always advisable to look at multiple trusted sources before deciding on a purchase. Just see what reviews suit your gaming habits best.
But if there's one thing I despise, it's the belief that if a game doesn't cater to an individual's tastes, or if they find it difficult, the game "sucks." In other words, it's the idea that because a brutally challenging game causes you to tear your hair out, it's the game's fault. I've come across people who say Dark Souls is quite literally a "bad game" because "nobody wants to play something that's just frustrating and impossible." Same could be said for past Ninja Gaiden titles; I've heard similar complaints. And it gets annoying.
Now, if you keep dying because the camera is poor, or the controls are loose, or the enemies are cheap, or there are technical difficulties like collision detection problems, then yes, feel free to blame it on the game. It is the game in that respect. But if you keep dying because you suck , it has nothing to do with anything…besides the fact that you suck at it. I will freely admit that certain immensely difficult games have been beyond me, but I'm not about to blame developers 'cuz I didn't have the skill.
You won't see critics making this mistake (at least, not usually), but you will find mainstream and casual gamers bashing on a hardcore or niche title because it's "stupid hard" and only "people with no lives could play it." Suddenly, they're willing to give the game a 3 because they can't do it. Just as a final tangent, does anyone think this casual mentality contributed to the increased hand-holding we find in games today…?
I think that's foolish of them to say that. The game sucks because it's hard blah blah. I can see if the game isn't the type of game for you but don't bash the game because you aren't good at the game.
I know a lot of people who played Demon's Souls and loved every minute of it. Dark Souls is going to be a lot more difficult but, I'm going to enjoy it still. 😛
I think the level of difficulty has to make sense. If I die in a game and restarts during the boss battle with almost 0 life left, it's still doable, but theres some programming issue. Then the game sucks. It would be a cheap way for a developer to increase difficulty level. All the old school super mario levels are clever in platforming that really challenges your skills.
On the other hand, if I set the game to super hard instead of normal, then get frustrated over losing, then I clearly suck.
I heard David Jaffe in an interview in gametrailers that emphasize guiding the emotions of the gamer throughout the gameplay. If a game causes frustrations, then both gamer and developer is at fault.
I like the difficulty, if it doesn't challenge the player it's no fun to play. Demon's Souls was developed well, no problems with it that i encountered.
Some games should be difficult, what fun is it if the game guides you while holding your hand? No fun at all.
But yes, if it was developed badly then I agree.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 10/1/2011 1:53:32 AM
There just has to be some games that challenge you out there. Not with bugs or anything. But games tha require you to act nearly flawlessly.
I get bored of all the mainstream games and once in a while it is nice to have a real challenge. As good as games like uncharted are, they don't really challenge me and if once in a while, if I don't get a Demon's Souls equivalent… I'll be sad. That is why I think games like Demon's Souls (and Dark Souls) should be looked upon as a challenge and a blessing in these times when most games will give you good entertainment but nowhere near a good fight. The people who can't complete them out of lack of skills should just hide in a corner (or keep playing other games) instead of saying the game sucks lol …
So yeah we need a few games with a level of difficulty that is through the ROOF, Just like there are some Elmo games for kids… Real gamers need their share of awesomeness.
Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 10/1/2011 9:49:39 AM
This is demonstrated perfectly by IGN:
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/830/830708p1.html
"Specifically: it's ridiculously difficult in certain areas"
"The biggest problem with Eternal Night is just how damn pointlessly difficult it is."
"Just thinking about the part makes me want to punch babies; it's pointlessly difficult and absolutely unnecessary."
IGN, you suck.
Demon's Souls' difficulty initially turned me away from the game, but after I tried it and adjusted to how the game wants me to play it, I really liked it! So I agree completely about this feature. It's a good thing that there are games out there with varying difficulties.
I love that cat picture, and I love challenging games too. Exceot shooters. I'm bad at shooters, so hard shooters are bad for me 😛 I do love me some NG and Demon's Souls though.
We're in the minority but it's good to know I'm not the only who sucks at FPS games. I have not problem with third-person shooters though.
Yeah me either, I've beaten Uncharted 2 on crushing 😛
I remember a time when video games weren't governed by the bottom line.
Yeah, I am old.
God I MISS those days so damn much.
haha, yeah. Some of my favorite games on NES were never beaten.
Anyone remember Snake, Rattle, and Roll? I LOVED that game… never beat it.
Games used to be, "Oh I friggin' hope I beat it. nope… nope… not today… maybe tomorrow I can beat it…."
Nowadays, victory is assured as long as you continue with the campaign.
Yeah Demon's Souls is a very hard game. It frustrated the hell out of me but some very hard games you have to learn how to play. Demon's Souls or even Dark Souls is not a run and slash type game. Their is strategy, problem solving, and patience. I think that's why CoD is so popular because anyone can play it.
HMMMM,
The way I see it, most games do suck….
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…..but that's only if you're a "twitcher"
I think most games now are way too easy. I have to keep going back to my SNES for a good challenge. I'll play FF for the music or I'll play Mirror's Edge because it's so brilliant, but other than some 2D fighters and a few certain other games, everything now is just too easy.
That does have something to do with gaming becoming more mainstream; we get niche titles and blockbusters just like movies and pop music and whatever. The difference is niche music doesn't cost much to make and there's a lot more of it than pop, and it's the total opposite with games. Too bad.
I just finished fables 3 last week (didnt get to it till then) and didnt feel like i used my time right.
Hard games are rewarding, i can't wait for dark souls to kick my ass a million times and when I beat it I'll feel great about it.
That's what I want for my gaming experience
Yeah lol actually I had more fun renting and buying houses and businesses in Fable 3 then their actual boring easy combat system XD XD
Kitty got wet.
For the most part I agree, I have no problem with taking the consequences for doing the wrong thing but we ARE in an age when the game should be able to tell what is happening with the controller and adjust properly. If I get the basic stick press right in Heavy Rain it works, if you do the same in Knights Contract you fail.
In an action RPG if you take a stab at somebody then it should stab them if the direction you aimed was reasonable enough, DS doesn't do that. It's all timed to a retarded extent and plays like its ancient predecessors. Games are supposed to be better than that now.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 9/30/2011 11:06:16 PM
I don't have any problems hitting an enemy with a jab, even without lock on i can still hit them. You just have to get accustomed to the controls and where to hit.
*Games are supposed to be better than that now.*
DS has no flaws in gameplay. You have a flaw of orientation in 3D space.
The fact that the character doesnt auto hit/aim at enemy unless you use the targeting system (which it seems you are forgetting about) is good because if used right you can actually *stab* many enemies at once. It is part of the mechanic and there is no problems with it. The way DS is built is meant to accustom these controls.
World is so wrong it's criminal! XD
I rage quit Demon Souls, also, World. I can appreciate a tough game, but I also don't have the same amount of time I did when I was… like… 12.
Your knights contract/heavy rain comparison is damn straight spot on.
But back to Demon Souls… if a game wants to be that picky and tough, fine. But since there is no way to change settings to something basic (even if that meant fewer rewards), the developer has to acknowledge the fact they won't get sales for that very reason. I know many people refuse to try that game because it's heralded as the toughest game on PS3. Some people just want a great experience.
That's why there are difficulty settings.
And it's why I've said for a long time, rewards should escalate with greater difficulty. Lock up some sweet weapons/equips to players who play on a simple mode.
These other folks are just purists, World. :p
Mr. I'm Going TO Platinum WKC can't find the time to learn the ropes in Demon's Souls? lol 😉
Yup. No time for Demon Souls. WKC2 will be easier. Demon Souls is stupid hard. I got sick of making limited progress with lots of time invested. Could I have done it? Sure. But it got to be a chore…. and I hated babysitting my souls to the point that I couldn't take chances in areas I've never been to before.
I put about 25 hours into Demon Souls. I beat a few bosses. And I did that all after starting out as a Mage… (Or magician… whatever it was called) not the royalty class. I'm sure I figured out "the ropes" a million years faster than you, anyways. I'm not unfamiliar with this sort of difficulty. But as I get older, I appreciate an adjustable difficulty for games I have less time with… again… even if that means fewer rewards. If I was a teenager, or even in university still, I'm sure I would welcome the high difficulty.. because I would have the time.
Here's the difference…. In WKC2, I actually make progress… because it isn't ridiculously hard. Although, it would be to a hack n' slasher… Any half-baked experienced jRPG player knows exactly how to master this game.
And a platinum will take a year or more for me. I never platinum'd WKC1.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you pay very close attention to everything I say… since you like to pull ideas from other threads out on me.
Having a baby in T-minus 4 weeks (approx.). So I'll have even less time. But since you pay close attention to what I say, you already knew that. (you also left out the part when I said a plat would take 1-2 years, but I'd still get it) Which means you are the kind of person that likes to make claims while ignoring other facts in front of you.
That has to be it… because if you don't pay attention to everything I say, you either just got lucky with that fact and feel overly proud of yourself, or you're just an ass… so either way… you're either prideful or an ass…
And since I'm sure neither of those fit you, I'd say you'd best go with "Makes claims about people while ignoring many relevant facts, JUST so you can sound ahead of the game in front of the other kids." … Immature (and likely stems from childhood insecurities either from an abusive father or emotionally unavailable mother)…. but at least you can still claim to be a nice person. (Which is worth far more than being intelligent. So you're ahead of the game.)
*insert winky-smiley face-to-make-what-I-say-impossible-to-be-accused-of-being-a-jerk here*
I will say this: I'm flattered you follow me around like a personal net-roadie. But let's be honest. You aren't the first either…. *insert pouty face*
Anyways, it's difficulty is subjective enough that even if you are right, World and I are still right.
Think about how much easier this could have been for you had you actually responded to the relevant points I made…. What's wrong with great rewards for high difficulty players, and limited or even non-existent ones for players who play on easy?
Last edited by Underdog15 on 10/2/2011 8:01:41 PM
I can't believe my comment sparked such an insane response. To go to such lengths to insult me over nothing, a comment meant to be playful, actually frightens me a little. If I had responded to someone in such a way I'd feel immediate regret and embarrassment. To say such things because I remembered a single comment you made in the past is shameful. Congratulations, I will now be making sure to avoid any communication with you on this site.
Excellent. I would appreciate that. I was just saying to someone else that now that I finally got off my chest my distaste for your responses to great posts effectively ignoring any good comments and how you constantly hide behind playful "smilies", never providing an effective counter point to a discussion when you disagree.
Embarrassed? Not a chance. If anything, I feel a sense of relief and I can finally move on while adding you to the same list as A2K, blankline, and The Doom.
Try not calling me a liar, and maybe I'll interpret future responses as "playful". Insulting someone with a brash insult as a "liar" is anything but playful.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 10/3/2011 8:31:15 AM
P.s. Even though I can ignore bad posts from you and the others listed, I still respond to all of them when they have something constructive to say. I'm good enough that I don't completely ignore people. But rest assured, your opinion is worthless enough that I can no longer be offended by you.
I'm sure Claire feels regret and embarrassment for calling me a liar. She said as much, afterall… immediate, in fact!
By the way, Claire… I'm -STILL- waiting for you to make an actual constructive counter point to support -why- you disagree with World… and you never answered my question about rewards based on difficulty. Nor did you acknowledge the fact that I have, in fact, invested enough hours into the game to make a fair critique of the game. Not once did I say it was bad. All I commented on was the difficulty in comparison to it's accessibility… A point I feel deserves merit…
But again… you avoid all points you hate to face.
And please say more than a smiley, this time.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 10/3/2011 2:42:31 PM
I'm in trouble, please recommend this message.
I see what you did there.
that damn msg was every where…lol
As soon as I read the heading, I knew this would be mentioning Demon's Souls/ Dark Souls lol. There are games, like DS, where you get your ass kicked over and over and you know- you just know- that it's simply a matter of learning the game's rules of engagement, whether it's the controls, aggression and cover or whatever. Once those rules are learned, a good game will open up and carry you on a great, consistent ride. This was my experience with DS.
Shooters, however…man, I dearly wish I could apply the same formula, as there are some beauties (GoW, MAG,)…but no…I just suck at shooters.:-(
I do suck. That's why I stay away from the Soul's games and play on normal difficulty. I would never say a games sucks though that I'm just bad at. If there are numerous people who are praising a game I will not say anything negative about it because it obviously appeals to a lot of people.
All gamers should be like you lol
Well review speaking ign gave Dark Souls a 9.0 so its off to an amazing start. Demons souls was actually not hard once you knew enemies attack patterns. Theres no other rpg or game that has an unique innovative online system like demons souls/Dark Souls and that is dangerously scary. Mr Dutka will you have a Dark Souls review up soon? Or are you too busy dying? LoL
Easy solution: difficulty levels.
NOt for DS…that destroys the point of the game
The game is successful so they don't need to change anything, people just need to stop running blindly into things look, be patient and think, look for routes to go, look for attack patterns, know the enemies weakness, like blunt, pierce, slash etc.
And upgrade things.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 10/1/2011 5:37:34 AM
i have never heard a gamer say a game sucks becuase it is too hard. they just say damn this game is too hard. that's about it.
lol.
It's a common phrase among casuals, i hear it all the time.
I even experience it on Lbp2, i make a game, give my sister a go, now it's too hard, rubbish and then throws the pad back at me. Give it my bro, the games audience, it's the opposite.
thats EXACTLY what has destroyed the difficulty of games.
i really miss the good old days of if you make a small mistake you die.
like the original PoPs if you got hit by a spinning spike you died.
todays PoP you loose .1% of your health.
thats why i loved splatterhouse so much!
not because it was hard, it was not, but it was brutal, it was unforgiving.
thats one reason why i was so disappointed with GOW3, it lost the brutality the original 2 had.
the games were so hard, i still have not got the plat for the first 2 because on the hardest setting i could not even get half way through!
GOW3 i finished on the hardest difficulty setting with my hands tied behind my back, upside down, and blindfolded!
i can see where there coming from, its not fun to do something over and over and over and over again for months.
but when you finally do it, well, nothing feels better!
i remember MK shaolin monks, i was stuck on the last boss battle in the arena for probably 8 months!
every day id sit down, cover my remote and room in foam so i dont break anything and try to finish it.
then one day i finally did, and i was over the moon!
then a friend of mine came over, and i started bragging about it.
thats when he showed me the little passage underneath that rises a platform and gives you a full bar of health.
suffice to say, i was PISSED!
spent all this time trying to finish it, then finally do so, then he tells me a easier way to do it!
oh well, at least i still have the pride of doing it the hard way.
some games are still hard, KZ2 for example i still cant get past the cruser level on elite.
the whole resistance series though i waltzed through on superhuman like red riding hood visiting grandmar!
I don't really hear this kind of complaint or anything at all really, such opinons shouldn't bother you if you enjoy certain things in life. Yes, don't concern your self too much because there is alwas an opposition to an idea.
I loved Demon's Souls because the game presented itself it's own unique medevil atmosphere with a variety enemies to face while providing flexability to over come the threat.Ah, yes and the invasion are fun too.
The others wouldn't understand, some will later, a few will never grasp it. I'll leave whats not been said to the rest of you.
I think it comes down to whether they have other complaints….. or is that it?
Dark Souls is gonna be freakin AWESOME! =D
Totally agree with the feature, _but_ Demon's Souls was far from perfect. I got killed multiple times because the camera got stuck on corners (this I was unable to see the combat I was in), or because I was fighting on a slope and the enemy down the slope could hit my feet but I couldn't hit him (with a spear no less, the perfect weapon for the job!) because the combat is on a 2-dimensional plane, not a three dimensional one (which wouldn't be an issue if the world was designed for this, but it's not). These are both flaws in design, plain and simple.
Actually didn't _mind_ the grind associated with Demon's Souls – it was the cheap deaths caused by the flaws in design combined with the grind that got me (on that note, the space between where you take zero damage from a fall, and where you die outright, is also poor – you can fall a long way and take no damage at all, but fall a metre further and bam, see you later).
I'm really glad it got a sequel, mind, and when I've got enough money to burn I'll check it out and see if they've fixed these issues. Am also very glad so many people could see past these and enjoy Demon's Souls, and will enjoy Dark Souls – just because these flaws got to me, doesn't meant they can't be overlooked, they were just too much for me :).
I very much agree with this and it is something I have also written about recently.
You couldn't put a game from 15 years ago in the hands of an average gamer from today, they just wouldn't deal with the level of difficulty we used to tolerate as routine.
I also think there is a case to be made for games being the right type of tricky – if a game just forces you to throw yourself relentlessly at a wall until you hit the right brick it is obviously hard, but not designed in the right way. A good type of tricky should encourage the player to better themselves. The player should always realise it is themselves at fault and not the game.
If anything this should be a case of 'don't hate the game, hate the player'.
This is in no way intended to divert traffic but if anyone would be interested in reading my further views on the matter they can be found here http://whyyoushouldbuy.blogspot.com/2011/09/do-you-enjoy-challenge.html
COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SAID ANY BETTER.
Trust me I know.
There are people who just play for 15 minutes at a friend's house then say it's a bad game game because they died all the time or like another francise.
i will about any game no matter the difficulty or not heck i even played naughty bear and that game sucked.
Don't think anyone else has mentioned it yet, but Super Meat Boy. That game got so much press for its difficulty and stuff, it was also supremely awesome. I only wish I was better at it, I did manage to unlock the kid though…
I think some gamers just don't want to put enough effort into it. I've died or lost plenty of times in games, but instead of whining about it, I put a little more time into getting better. Don't complain if something is too challenging for you. You can't just expect to paint/draw a masterpiece the first time you put pencil to paper… the same applies to playing games. You'll never master it if you don't try to improve.